"How to Use Horse Archers" in Rome: Total War

Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

Multiplayers tend to learn lessons quicker, and the hard way. I've read where some of the swear on, or at, the circle as a very effective anti-missile tactic. I'd still like to see some sort of test on that. I tried to do one in a custom game, but for some reason the HA's wouldn't circle. I need to try it again.

[FF]Louis-Ste-Simurgh and I tried cav archers against normal infantry archers a few days before we started our phalanx tests. Circle does make a huge difference; it tires the horses out faster but makes them very hard to hit indeed. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the difference was both significant and unmistakeable.

Circle is one of the reasons cav archers now beat foot archers, rather than losing to them a la MTW and STW. The infantry can't hit them and the cav can rip them apart at leisure.

It also appears that infantry archers may not get a bonus when shooting at cav; in all our tests with the two types of Roman infantry archer against vanilla and specialised Scythian horse archers the infantry lost. The more advanced infantry archers (archer auxilia?) did have a slightly longer range than the cavalry; it gave them one extra volley before the cav started shooting back. The vanilla Roman archers had the same range as all the assorted cavalry archers, IIRC … certainly the same range as most of them.

So, based on our tests, and my in-game experience which prompted them, cavalry archers are no longer countered by infantry archers. In fact there does not seem to be a natural counter to them. Even light cavalry tend to get shot up quite badly while closing to melee due to the cavalry archer's ability to move and shoot, and the Parthian shot ability.

Frogbeastegg got it mainly right. We try with 10 regular archer, 10 auxiliaries, 10 HA, and 10 noble HA.

Even very light armour Horse Archer can defeat Chosen foot Archer, with the circle additional protection (actually... even without it...). Horse Archer won missile duel in ALL configurations.

I think part of the problem is the foot archer targeting. It looked like the foot archers were targeting left of my horse archer. A bit like if they were targeting ahead of the horse, but did not get that the horse is NOT going to move in a straight line.

Range of Chosen Archer; 170, of normal Foot Archer; 120, of all Horse Archer; 120.

Personally, I don't think there is any good solution against horse archer... Beside engaging ennemy infantry line (if there is any to engage...) as fast as possible, or getting an awful lot of armour, as in REALLY a lot. And pray that the HA will target cheap unit.

Light cavalry pursuit is difficult, as Horse Archers faction also often have good cavalry (making pursuit hasardous)... Not to mention getting shot at while pursuing. So pursuing is much like giving a nice good convenient target.

Louis,

Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

We try with 10 regular archer, 10 auxiliaries, 10 HA, and 10 noble HA.

Yes, that's the unit allotment. Thanks for compensating for my dodgy memory.

I think part of the problem is the foot archer targeting. It looked like the foot archers were targeting left of my horse archer. A bit like if they were targeting ahead of the horse, but did not get that the horse is NOT going to move in a straight line.

This was the other interesting point we found in our tests; I didn't mention it before because I didn't get to see it personally. I was suffering from terrible lag during the last half of the tests and it was impossible to tell what was happening with the animation. If there is an issue with infantry archers not quite aiming correctly it would make a good part of an explanation as to why they get killed each and every time now. This could stand more investigation.

Foot archers "leading" targets that aren't moving? That would be a find.

However, wouldn't that mean that things like HA circling would make foot archers more effective instead of less?

Anybody want to propose a test, or series of tests? I'm game.

Tests ... hmm. I would take a unit of foot archers and a unit of cav. I would see how many casualties the inf caused while both units were stationary. Say an average of 10 volleys. I would then get some fresh in and cav, and try the same thing again. Kills are totted up and averaged.

Next up is 2 more units of fresh inf and cav. This time the cav walk towards the inf while the inf fire. Again 10 volleys, then repeat with fresh units. Kills are totted up and averaged.

Next up same idea again, except this time the cav run forwards. Repeat twice, 10 volleys, average kills etc.

Then with the next set of fresh units I would have the cavalry run from left to right in front of the archers in medium range. 10 volleys. Repeat twice, average kills.

Finally I would get two more lots of fresh units and get the cav to run away while under fire. It would be vital to make sure the inf didn't open fire until the cav started moving away. 10 volleys, repeat twice, average kills.

Note: in all of these tests the cav are not shooting themselves; infantry deaths will affect the number of arrows being fired and screw up the results. Circle is not used at all.

This would have to be MP; not only is the fine control needed but also the AI tends to do stupid things which ruin tests.

That should give decent results.

That's what I'd do, but based on my experience last time I'd lag badly less than halfway into this. Louis had no troubles with lag before, but I ended up down to one screen every two seconds with half my controls not working. I'd also have to get someone else to do the maths unless you wanted it dyslexified.


EDIT again: I'd also be interesting in some decent tests to see if archers, slings and javelins are more accurate close up or at maximum range. I have seen it suggested that archers do best at the end of their range this time.

Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

This would have to be MP; not only is the fine control needed but also the AI tends to do stupid things which ruin tests.

Well, that knocks me out. I have an older machine and a phone line.

It's a very important topic, though. If foot archers can't hit a horse any better than a horse archer hits them, that's an enormous change from all the other TW games.

Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

Foot archers "leading" targets that aren't moving? That would be a find.

Sorry, I was not clear enough.

In a sense Canta circle are not moving... But in another sense, if one archer target one specific circling horse archer, and assume that he is going to ride straight, all arrows are going to go array. Because Horse Archer are not going straight. by circling around, I wonder if Horse Archer are not fooling foot archer targetting ability.
I don't know how targetting work. does it target the unit leader? The unit in general? Are all archer targetting a specific target? I got no clue.
But I was surprised to see all the arrows landing left of my circling unit.
Does that depend on the rotation sense of the canta circle?

The obvious result was that Horse Archer hits Foot Archer far better than Foot Archer hits Horse Archer.
Foot Archer do better if Horse Archer are not circling... But they still lose.

And yes it's a very significant change from previous TW.

Louis,

PS; test is doable... next week.

Having used bows for many years, I'll offer first-hand experience that hitting moving targets is quite difficult. Because of the slow speed of the arrow, and the high trajectory, lead required is nigh impossible to calculate, particularly since targets seldom move directly away, or to the side, but rather at an angle. That said, trying to hit ANYTHING while the shooter is moving is laughable. Horse archers generally fired on the move at mass targets or individuals at close range. And at that they can be leathal. But the damage I've seen in RTW from horse and chariot archers while at a full gallop is absurd. It just ain't that easy. 'Twould be nice to find some happy medium for a change. Volley firing with arrows, then later with firearms, increased the possibility of hits, most notably on masses of troops. Chariot archers in this game, while running around inside a city wall, will still tear my troops up. Really? On the move? Shooting over a wall? I'm just glad this is a game. I guess it is a lot more fun and better to give, rather than receive.

Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

PS; test is doable... next week.

I'm busy this week too, but next week should be doable for a few hours. I'll add it on to my (getting long) list of things to test with a smurf.

Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

I'm busy this week too, but next week should be doable for a few hours. I'll add it on to my (getting long) list of things to test with a smurf.

Errr.... how long is that list?

Can I enroll smurf associate? Does it have to be a test with a smurf? Are we sure test with a smurf are relevant when it comes to games with human?



Louis,

PS; for missile you want to test the range issue? We also need to check the rank thing.