"How to Use Horse Archers" in Rome: Total War

[The Hun]

You guys should give Total Realism mod a try. HA are in 'horde formation' so you have no options. This part I do not like but with the adjustments they have made to the game, HA armies really do have to work hard to achieve victory. I had an army of Greeks attack me and they had the usual armoured pikes and hoplites, I had only HA and ran out of arrows as I reduced their numbers. Last time I faced a huge phalanx on vanilla game I shot them to bits and only a handful got away, this time they were reduced but still dangerous now I was out of arrows. I used mock charge and feigned retreat to isolate units and of course, to get them exhausted and then hit quickly from rear and flanks. The enemy general showed his worth......Nothing!! but it was a very hard fought battle requiring much manoeuvre and concentration.

[Doug-Thompson]

You guys should give Total Realism mod a try.

Yeah, but I'm not done obsessing over the vanilla game yet.

Seriously, after all this exploration of how to use HA, there's the whole other side to look at -- how do you fight them?

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The shieldless-side vulnerability factor is a much bigger issue in R:TW than in M:TW, I believe, because HA now fire on the move.

In M:TW, you'd run for the shieldless side -- if you could do that without getting one end of your line caught in melee. The enemy unit would keep moving. Your HA would stop and start firing. The target would change facing. You'd have to stop firing and start moving again. And so forth and so forth. Most often, you were better off just keeping your distance and moving another unit into the flank and rear.

In R:TW -- You run for the shieldless side. Your never stop firing, and the arrows start hitting the vulnerable side as soon as you get any edge at all. The target starts changing facing. You run more, and cut closer. You're running faster than it can change facing and the fire is continuous. Also, you're better able to concentrate fire from different units because your HA aren't strung out in long, thin formations that are very vulnerable to melee.

Remember how spear units would reform after each man dropped in M:TW? No time for that now.

Next thing you know, the target has taken heavy losses, is spinning like a drunken dancer and losing it's pattern while showing its very vulnerable backside to another one of your units.

It sure looks to me like phalanx formation makes this vulnerability worse. I know that spear units don't change facing as fast when they are in phalanx mode when I'm controlling them.

[Doug-Thompson]

On a simpler note:

When fighing HA with foot archers, turn skirmish mode off.

As noted, HA have the advantage when foot archers are moving. Since foot archers aren't fast enough to skirmish away from HA anyway, skirmish mode does the ground-pounders more harm than good. It interrupts their firing every time HA get close.

Yeah, the HA can charge, but vanilla HA are terrible in melee. Many decent ranged units can beat them man-to-man. Even with Persian Cav, etc., the archers might be able to survive long enough to get reinforced.

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The world's turned upside down. Now foot archers require more micro than HA.

I suspect the changes in R:TW are meant to address problems with HA in multi-player, where game lag was reportedly a constant headache to people who tried to micro these units.

[Oleander Ardens]

It has been a long , long time since my last reply here - finally some time for EB and the .org now


About the indiviual formations:

As Dough and R'as have rightly observed that it has become very easy to use now HA stacks to do the simple fact that you can turn a HA unit into a very compact size. As there is no more rankpenality, massive quadratic blocks are the way to go when very heavy in HA or footarchers.

Vanilla HA and the Scythian Noblewomen require more space by default, but the problem is greatly reduced with the block system. I personally hardly ever turn them into loose formation, as indiviudal archers are very often easy prey for multiplie cavaly charges.

The three male EliteHorseArchers are very densely packed, making their overall required space small indeed. These guys do in consequence profit much more from the loose formation, especially as they are far better to win missile duels, having more armor.


HA vs. Archers

As the footarchers are now a fare less powerful counter you arn't usually pressed to defeat them if there are only a few. Things change when there are elite archers in great quantity around, but this is seldomly the case.
In this occasions the "classical" cav. tactic works fine. Thanks to your speed you can concentrate your force in one point, braking resistence there with the combination of the charges of two-three cav. units. The HA factions all have a good lancer to do this job very well, the Parthians can even use Elephants.


How to counter enemy HA?

Well, as we all found out they are one of the most hated enemies on the battlefield, especially with factions lacking in elite archers and good cavalry. And on VH/VH HA are surly overpowerd compared to other units, as they have a ranged attack and are actually hard to defeat with light cav.
When you combine this with the climate bonus, things can turn very ugly when using light cav. This is the lesson I learned after having been soundly beaten by Scythia in a winterbattle playing the Macs. Two LL each were unable to defeat a lonly HA.

So I would tend in VH/VH to use archers in quadratic blocks and in loose formation (fire at will/stand ground/skirmish off), protected by spears with big shields and some cav. Keep close togheter and boost the morale with the general. You need patience and try to avoid routing at all costs; If it starts once you will ver likely loose the whole army.

Make good use of the terrain and hope for the best.


Cheers
OA

[Doug-Thompson]

It has been a long , long time since my last reply here - finally some time for EB and the .org now

Good to hear from you, OA.


About the indiviual formations:

The three male EliteHorseArchers are very densely packed, making their overall required space small indeed. These guys do in consequence profit much more from the loose formation, especially as they are far better to win missile duels, having more armor.

Hmm. Will have to try putting PerCav on loose ...

How to counter enemy HA?

Well, as we all found out they are one of the most hated enemies on the battlefield, especially with factions lacking in elite archers and good cavalry. And on VH/VH HA are surely overpowerd compared to other units, as they have a ranged attack and are actually hard to defeat with light cav.

I tend to agree here, too, but won't fully go over to that view until more countermeasures have been tried.

Frankly, I can't think of a good countermeasure to HA on VH, except that HA on VH are controlled by the AI. There are weaknesses in the AI to exploit, such as pinchers and map edges, but not in the unit.

When you combine this with the climate bonus, things can turn very ugly when using light cav. This is the lesson I learned after having been soundly beaten by Scythia in a winterbattle playing the Macs. Two LL each were unable to defeat a lonely HA.

Saw your description of that on another thread. Ouch.

[Doug-Thompson]

Looks like the big questions have been addressed. Hopefully, there will be some definitive test results someday but those will deserve a thread of their own. The remaining tactical questions I can think of probably need threads of their own, too.

1. What are the best countermeasures for HA, and what should HA do to counter-counter them? I really think top-notch foot archers like Chosen Archer Warbands can put up a good fight if the proper tactics are worked out, including co-ordination with other units.

2. Are the techniques worked out on this thread good for chariots, too? What about javelin-armed cavalry, like Numidians?

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Also, in the finer points-category, HA units will start firing at a target from a distance if you order a melee charge. Persian cav, for instance, will fire from a distance before charging with swords.

This means that if you order Persian Cav to melee with some fleeing cavalry, for instance, they will start firing and keep firing into the fleeing unit's backside until they catch up or the routers get away. It's a nice way to have Persian Cav pursue a unit without having to micromanage.

[R'as al Ghul]

Looks like the big questions have been addressed. 1. What are the best countermeasures for HA, and what should HA do to counter-counter them? I really think top-notch foot archers like Chosen Archer Warbands can put up a good fight if the proper tactics are worked out, including co-ordination with other units.

2. Are the techniques worked out on this thread good for chariots, too? What about javelin-armed cavalry, like Numidians?

I agree this case seems to be closed.
1. When I encounter enemy HA at the beginning of a Hard or VeryHard campaign, I try to pull them into melee with 2 or more of my own HA. The problem is the +4 or +7 attack bonus in these levels. The Ai knows that and will charge your HA with his own. In a 1vs1 melee you can only loose. If you happen to have some camels around or even better melee Cav you can easily rout them. If I face armies with several HA I try to seperate them from the main army to deal with them one by one. Cantabrian circle helps to minimize casualties in a shoot out.
Foot archers have two weaknesses. 1. They can't shoot on the run. 2. weak melee. They need to be protected and put on hold position.

2. No, chariots are a different category and I can't tell how to use them most effectivly. Jav-Cav on the other hand works pretty much like HA. There's one thing to consider however, their ammo is spent very fast. I don't have any stats at hand but even if they have the same amount of projectiles as HA do, they run out of Javs very fast. Tactically this means that you have to consider on which units you use them. Where are they needed most? You can't just let them run around shooting at random targets like HA. Jav-Cav needs more foreward planning. I would even recommend to switch f@w off.

R'as

[m4rt14n]

Anyone ever use Cat Camels in conjunction with PH or HA ? They seem very much unused, being in the highest tech level and all.

[Doug-Thompson]

Anyone ever use Cat Camels in conjunction with PH or HA ? They seem very much unused, being in the highest tech level and all.

Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance.

The stats are great, but I only play campaigns. By the time I can get them, the game is practically over.