On social drinkers and deranged generals

[Kekkonen]

Two questions about v&v's:

1. Do social drinkers inevitably get worse? Two of my faction leader's sons were growing up in the capital under their uncle's tutelage. The uncle picked up the Social Drinker trait at some point, and both of the sons were social drinkers at 16. The other one went and conquered Athens, and he's been living it up there ever since -- and his drinking has gotten worse. Is the other one going to die as an alcoholic as well? Other than his fondness of wine, he's got what it takes to be a fine, upstanding Roman.

2. Can Deranged dads have sane sons? My deranged 24-year-old general just married a 13-year-old. Will their kids also drown spiders in vinegar and later obsess about the pointiness of the pointy things of their troops?

[Captain Fishpants]

And two answers:

1. Social Drinkers have a chance of getting worse, but they may also turn to the wonderful world of sobriety. There are many ways for a character to pick up poor drinking habits, but the obvious ones are being left, doing nothing, in a town with somewhere that serves drink in copious amounts (hint: which Gods make booze a central part of their faith?). Drinking like a fish is a characteristic that may cause a son to go the other way as he sees his old dad rolling around in his own puke... Not a pleasant image, I admit, but a vivid one.

2. Lunacy in all its many manifestations does not have an inherited component. It's a "nurture" aspect of a character rather than a "nature" one.

[Kekkonen]

2. Lunacy in all its many manifestations does not have an inherited component. It's a "nurture" aspect of a character rather than a "nature" one.

Thanks. This is good news. The madman is only in his early 20s, so he could still get a lot worse; and while he's obviously insane, he's not too crazy for military duty (4 stars + 1 against rebels from a retainer). I think I'll keep him as the leader of the MRSU (Mobile Rebel Slaughtering Unit), his battle speeches are amusing.

I didn't know a drinker could sober up in RTW. That's a nice touch too.

[Bob the Insane]

Thanks. This is good news. The madman is only in his early 20s, so he could still get a lot worse; and while he's obviously insane, he's not too crazy for military duty (4 stars + 1 against rebels from a retainer). I think I'll keep him as the leader of the MRSU (Mobile Rebel Slaughtering Unit), his battle speeches are amusing.

I didn't know a drinker could sober up in RTW. That's a nice touch too.

I had a General in my Scipii campaign (I have not finished yet , but he is dead) who was bonkers... Half decent general but if you placed him in a city
as the governor it would almost automatically revolt!!! He spent most of his life as "the Mad" but died with "the Mighty"...

Nothing more annoying than a decent general droping and command star just becuase he has given up have the odd drink with his mates...

[Kekkonen]

I had a General in my Scipii campaign (I have not finished yet , but he is dead) who was bonkers... Half decent general but if you placed him in a city
as the governor it would almost automatically revolt!!! He spent most of his life as "the Mad" but died with "the Mighty"...

I had a real black sheep of the family in the Julii campaign that I started just to learn the ropes. He was an 8-star general, but it seemed like he had collected almost every vice that doesn't reduce your command rating. He wasn't nuts though -- he was just a pervert. At one point I calculated that if management and influence could go into the negative, he'd have -1 management and something like -5 influence -- and that's with a priest of Jupiter -- and +40% in unrest.

But as I said, he was a hell of a general. He was Amulius Victor after destroying the Gauls, and may have gotten another moniker after single-handedly taking out the Spanish faction.

[Captain Fishpants]

Thanks. This is good news. The madman is only in his early 20s, so he could still get a lot worse; and while he's obviously insane, he's not too crazy for military duty (4 stars + 1 against rebels from a retainer). I think I'll keep him as the leader of the MRSU (Mobile Rebel Slaughtering Unit), his battle speeches are amusing.

I didn't know a drinker could sober up in RTW. That's a nice touch too.

Some vices and virtues have counter-traits. A character who starts to sober up will gradually become less of a drunk and may even go teetotal. It's quite possible for a general to waver in his attachment (or not) to the wine amphora over a number of years. Likewise, it's possible for a (marginal) coward to redeem himself and even become known for his bravery, if he does the right thing often enough.

However - and this is an important "however" - for some traits there's an extreme point at which you can't get back to a normal condition. If a man starts drinking heavily (for example), he can go just that bit too far and never be able to completely kick the habit.

Finally some traits will stop you getting other vices or virtues. The four "humours" or basic character types of classical times are mutually exclusive, for example; a man cannot simultaneously be pious and an atheist; and so forth. There's actually quite a clever system under the hood for VnVs this time, and I think it adds quite a lot of character to the characters!

[HicRic]

I love the way the traits seem to affect the pre-battle speeches, too. Really helps bring out the character from the traits onto the battlefield (I think the bloodthirsty guys talk about "bathing in blood for a week" and the lunatics talk nonsense?)

My Brutii family are certainly a...colourful bunch of people.

A very nice touch to the game.

[TinCow]

Finally some traits will stop you getting other vices or virtues. The four "humours" or basic character types of classical times are mutually exclusive, for example; a man cannot simultaneously be pious and an atheist; and so forth. There's actually quite a clever system under the hood for VnVs this time, and I think it adds quite a lot of character to the characters!

I have seen a Spartan Connoisseur. Reading their descriptions, those traits should be mutually exclusive but clearly they are not.

[Kekkonen]

I love the way the traits seem to affect the pre-battle speeches, too. Really helps bring out the character from the traits onto the battlefield (I think the bloodthirsty guys talk about "bathing in blood for a week" and the lunatics talk nonsense?)

Yup. If your general is bloody, you'll hear "I want to see blood! I want to bathe in their blood! I want to bathe in their blood for a week! Now go KILL THEM ALL!!"

Deranged: "...but our pointy things are pointier than theirs. Yes, much pointier..."

Social drinker: "The first man to the enemy gets a jug of my finest wine!"

[*Ringo*]

My generals all seem to end up blood thirsty, deranged drinkers! Maybe it's just the way i play! Nice to see we'll get no more God Fearing Atheists like in MTW tho!

*Ringo*

/edit for typo, damn!!

[Khorak]

Oh my God I have to find a deranged lunatic and have him go into battle!
*runs off to play RTW*

[SwordsMaster]

Lastly Im getting lots of drunkard, deranged, minions, but really good commanders and wall defenders..... Curious.Specially when combined with Understanding of Mathematics and Famous Orator. (And yes, I have a guy who has all of them + Drillmaster). Go figure.....

[SwordsMaster]

Lastly Im getting lots of drunkard, deranged, minions, but really good commanders and wall defenders..... Curious.Specially when combined with Understanding of Mathematics and Famous Orator. (And yes, I have a guy who has all of them + Drillmaster). Go figure.....

[Kekkonen]

Deranged drunkard minion drillmaster. That's, um, an interesting person...

[SwordsMaster]

hmmm...double post, somehow...

[troymclure]

i'm a big fan of the new v&v/family tree system my favourite character ever produced was Doros the Mad, at age 16 he was a military genius, prim, a good defender and a good management vice, he also hooted.
It was the hooting that was his downfall, it seemed to get worse the more battles he won too. I was the greeks and by his 30th birthday (and maybe almost as many battles) he was not only a bomb general. He also spent hours every night drowning spiders in vinegar. By age 45 he was painting his bottom blue. :(
still he was by far and away my best general and i used him in practically every battle... till he got the plague that is.
ps:- i'm still hoping CA adds a tombstone feature(as previously posted by a poster who's name i cna't remember sorry), ie being able to mousever dead family members and see their old stats as i feel it would add some continutiy to the game. I don't know it would have been cool for me to be able to compare Doros's traits to some of his grandchildren further into the game.

[AngryGerbil]

i'm still hoping CA adds a tombstone feature(as previously posted by a poster who's name i cna't remember sorry), ie being able to mousever dead family members and see their old stats

Agreed.

[The Tuffen]

sounds like a good idea the tombstone thing.

I once had a general that was a casual adulter, drinker, minion and had a retinue of a drinking buddy and mistress

My current faction leader has Legendry commander, infantry commander of genius, Bloodthirsty and craven coward

[LordKhaine]

I had a character who was a heavy drinker, had a mistress, a drunken uncle, a drinking companion, and the openly adulterous trait. As well as some other excessive pleasure seeking traits! He must have been fun at a party.

Though I do note the huge increase in such negative traits since my empire got rich. Before everyone was getting good traits, now everyone is rich and happy, and all becoming alcoholics, perverts, and adulterers. I guess it's pretty realisic in that respect!

[Slyspy]

Finally some traits will stop you getting other vices or virtues. The four "humours" or basic character types of classical times are mutually exclusive, for example; a man cannot simultaneously be pious and an atheist; and so forth. There's actually quite a clever system under the hood for VnVs this time, and I think it adds quite a lot of character to the characters!

Doesn't mean there are no stupid combinations though. I have a (bribed) Gaulish leader who is the "restrained" and subject to "uncontrollable rage" for example and no end of childless "fertile" generals. Guess they have lots of bastards running around heh?

[*Ringo*]

i'm still hoping CA adds a tombstone feature(as previously posted by a poster who's name i can't remember sorry), ie being able to mouseover dead family members and see their old stats as i feel it would add some continutiy to the game. I don't know it would have been cool for me to be able to compare Doros's traits to some of his grandchildren further into the game.

Agreed here also, has this been mentioned on one of the feature request threads?

*Ringo*

[Lemur]

Anyone who deliberately keeps their insane general out of battle is missing a lot of fun. All you have to do is give him an onverwhelming force to make up for the morale loss. The speeches alone make him worth it.

Much to my concern, my completely insane general gave a very normal speech before a battle with some Britons. He outlined the odds, the forces, and possible tactics. Only at the very end did he promise the troops that "Every man who survives will be my daughter! Petticoats for everyone!" At which the troops cheered.

I was glad to see I hadn't sat through the speech for nothing.

Anyway, don't leave those barking mad generals at home. Even if they get slaughtered, they're much more fun at the front. And it's not as though you want them governing, anyway.

[Slaists]

What really irks me is the "bad farmer" line of vices... It seems, there is no way to avoid it... I keep my generals building farms, I have them always have less than full move points at the end of the turn, etc., still most of them get the bad farmer vice and then turn worse with time... Frustrating. Also, it is easy to gain the "useless tax collector" line of vices just by overlooking checking the tax rate at the end of the turn. If you take a governor for a stroll and put him back into the town the system as it is set up currently defaults to "very low" or "low taxes" so you'd have to change them back to "high/very high" manually. There is no way to tell what is the tax rate from just looking at the city icon though: you have to open the scroll. So, by forgetting to open it, you can easily obtain a "useless tax collector" governor :( Maybe something can be done about this in the patch? i.e., add an icon informing the player about the town's tax level in the town label (it currently informs about building status, pop. growth, etc.)? Or, the system could default to whatever it considers to be the best tax rate only after the "end turn" button has been pressed, not after a character takes a stroll outside the city gates?

[HopAlongBunny]

Beware the "Hooter "!

I almost pee'd myself when I saw this appear

He went on to live a normal life, living in an amphorah on the island of Crete

[Blodrast]

thanks for the info, Captain. It's really cool if the VnV system does indeed work that way, with a chance of going back on certain vices/virtues, and it sure is a great relief to know that we'll no longer see God-fearing Atheists and Atheist Zealots ! ;)

[Kekkonen]

Yes, drunkards (formerly "Social Drinkers", then "Likes A Drink" dudes, then out of control) can reform. Or they can drink their life away in Halicarnassus. Nice touch there.

[LordKhaine]

Only at the very end did he promise the troops that "Every man who survives will be my daughter! Petticoats for everyone!" At which the troops cheered.

I'm almost tempted to start another roman campaign... simply to hear the insane speechs! When I played as the Julii faction I never listened to the speeches of the insane... I simply expected them to be the same as the sane generals :(

I have a "dangerously mad" Parthian general... but the Parthians don't seem to get any special speeches. Always the same "today is a good day to die, blah blah, so let your battle cry be death death" etc etc

[Kekkonen]

Um... he's calm, but has a disturbing tendency to bite people at inopportune moments? That's got to be unsettling.

BTW, my deranged general just became Aedile last night. Who says senators have to be sane?

[Bob the Insane]

What really irks me is the "bad farmer" line of vices... It seems, there is no way to avoid it... I keep my generals building farms, I have them always have less than full move points at the end of the turn, etc., still most of them get the bad farmer vice and then turn worse with time...

From export_descr_prologue.txt:

;------------------------------------------
Trait BadFarmer
Characters family
NoGoingBackLevel 3
AntiTraits GoodFarmer

Level Poor_Farmer
Description Poor_Farmer_desc
EffectsDescription Poor_Farmer_effects_desc
Threshold 1

Effect Farming -1

Level Dislikes_Farming
Description Dislikes_Farming_desc
EffectsDescription Dislikes_Farming_effects_desc
Threshold 2

Effect Farming -2

Level Loathes_Farmers
Description Loathes_Farmers_desc
EffectsDescription Loathes_Farmers_effects_desc
Threshold 3

Effect Farming -3


Trigger that effect farmer VnV:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger temple_of_farming_vnv_trigger
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd

Condition EndedInSettlement
and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
and SettlementBuildingExists >= temple_of_farming_temple

Affects GoodFarmer 6 Chance 10

;------------------------------------------
Trigger random_birth19
WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge


Affects BadFarmer 1 Chance 2
Affects Girls 1 Chance 2
Affects RhetoricSkill 1 Chance 6

;------------------------------------------
Trigger random_birth30
WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge


Affects Bloodthirsty 1 Chance 2
Affects GoodFarmer 6 Chance 2
Affects Infertile 1 Chance 2
Affects DeceiverVirtue 1 Chance 2

;------------------------------------------
Trigger governing5
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= farms

Affects GoodFarmer 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger governing6
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

Condition not SettlementBuildingFinished >= farms

Affects BadFarmer 1 Chance 8


What can we get from the above...

1. It is possible to lose the trait until you get Loathes_Farmers (I think)..

2. It appears to test when a new Government building is finished to see if there are any farms (or could GovernorBuildingCompleted mean somthing else??).

3. It appears a lot easier to get good farmer than bad farmer..

4. Does anyone have any ideas about the "temple_of_farming_vnv_trigger" trigger???

5. There does not appear to be any mention of the size of the farms...

[Ulstan]

"i'm still hoping CA adds a tombstone feature(as previously posted by a poster who's name i can't remember sorry), ie being able to mouseover dead family members and see their old stats as i feel it would add some continutiy to the game. I don't know it would have been cool for me to be able to compare Doros's traits to some of his grandchildren further into the game."

I agree. I very much want to be able to look back on my family tree and see which were the shining stars of my faction, the glorious generals that swept all before them, which were the cunning 10 management governors that filled my coffers with gold, and then which ones were incompetent nincompoops that suffered an early untimely death at the hands of the rebels, and then lets not forget poor ugly marius, who had no head for numbers and never had any influence, but was a killer general, etc.