The Superhero's of RTW?

[Didz]

Every now and then as I'm reading the posts on this forum I come across a posting from one of these superhero's of RTW.

You know the guy who is bleating on about the game being too easy because he can beat the entire Praetorian Guard with one unit peasants and a bent stick.

I don't doubt that these people are telling the truth, I'm just curious as to how they do it. I've been wargaming for about 35 years so I'm reasonably aware of the tactic's that ought to work on the battlefield and yet I couldn't achieve such resounding victories even if I acheived a surprised flank attack in thick fog when the enemy were having breakfast.

So, what exactly are these people doing, is there some gliche in the logic somewhere that can be explioted that I don't know about?

Some special move like a 'mooney of death' that bowls over your enemies shield wall. Or are we just talking difficulty levels?

I'm really curious as it sounds like we are playing two completely different games.

[hoom]

I'm fairly sure its something to do with hard+ difficulty & (historically) excessive use of cavalry.

[Bob the Insane]

Somebody needs a ...

The situation you are discribing will never occur, even against high valour, well armed and armoured peasants (like the ones you get after revolts... ) it will not happen..

But on the other hand if you take two reasonably equal armies with no terrain advantage on either side in RTW and fight it out I challenge you (with your experience) to lose!! Bet you will not, even on Very Hard... Not unless you have seriously screwed up in the selection of your units in context with the enemy you are fighting...

[Didz]

Somebody needs a ...

The situation you are discribing will never occur, even against high valour, well armed and armoured peasants (like the ones you get after revolts... ) it will not happen..

But on the other hand if you take two reasonably equal armies with no terrain advantage on either side in RTW and fight it out I challenge you (with your experience) to lose!! Bet you will not, even on Very Hard... Not unless you have seriously screwed up in the selection of your units in context with the enemy you are fighting...

I have to admit that I have lost three seige battles against revolting Gladiators where the numeric odds were decidely in my favour. (e.g. 4:1)

However, these were situations where the former garrison was trying to retake their own city and so I was pitching Town Watch units against highly trained killing machines in very confined spaces. Not a good combination.

As you quite rightly say in a fairly even battle with an appropraite mix of units I can always out play the AI. But it is the right mix of units that matters, so for instance my armies campaigning in Egypt have a completely different units mix to those designed for Macedonia simple because of the need to combat chariots and desert axemen instead of the phalanx.

Basically, at present a human being will always have the advantage over the AI because the AI doesn't learn from its mistakes and so is doomed to repeat them. So, the first time I met Egyptian chariots they totally creamed my infantry but I quickly learned how to take them out with missile fire and light troops so that now they are just so much expensive cannon fodder.

The AI however, cannot learn that this is the case and continues to field armies with chariots.

The real challenge would be to play this game against a human opponent or opponents.

[Bob the Insane]

Town Watch

To use these guys with any degree of success you have to remember they have the morale and fighting spirit of a door mouse...

In fact on the battlefield they are best used a spectators, cheering on your other troops..

[Magraev]

It's either the case of kids showing off (ie. lying) or a case of exploiting bugs/features.

I consider myself a solid player (certainly not exceptional), but I'll never exploit bugs to win - I'd rather play at a lower difficulty level. This includes cases like luring the enemy to camp in front of your city's towers until utterly annihalated. It's too bad that the AI doesn't realize that this is bogus, but I sure do, and I won't record a win bqz of exploiting AI stupidity.

[Daevyll]

Generals make too big a difference to morale imho.

As in most battles morale is the key to victory, but if the enemy are without a good leader and you have your umpteen-* general with you, the enemy runs far too quickly.

[R'as al Ghul]

Didz,

I also noticed those posts and am quite sure that a lot of bragging and lying is involved. I would consider myself as an experienced player. I started with STW and followed the series till now. In fact it's been the only game worth my time in the last years. I mostly play SP but have some experience with MP as well. MP is of course the bigger challenge but throughout my play there have always been challenging battles in a campaign. Not every one, mind you, but I'm frequently surprised in a positive way by the AI.
For example the luring towards your walls during a siege-sally. Well, I read it here and thought I give it a try when I was seriously outnumbered and could have used the extra fire power from my walls. Guess what, the AI wasn't that stupid, as soon as he would take fire he retreated a few meters and simply couldn't be lured to the walls. There was no way to beat him with my units and I lost.
It's also a fact that the frequent flanking moves the AI does pull off are a huge improvement over the last games. In comparison to STW the AI got very clever.
However, in the end the game engine is limited and the human player will always be superiour. It would be eery if it was otherwise. It's only a game.


R'as

[Didz]

It's also a fact that the frequent flanking moves the AI does pull off are a huge improvement over the last games. In comparison to STW the AI got very clever.

Yes, I've noticed that. The Egyptians love manoeuvring their chariots around your flanks and if your not paying attention it can be damned nasty. On the other hand I've been caught out paying too much attention to these hovering chariots and suddnely finding my front line swamped by desert axemen.

I've now taken to forming a sort of three sided box with refused flanks to sheild my missile troops with Cavalry protecting the rear which seems to keep the Egyptains honest.

To use these guys with any degree of success you have to remember they have the morale and fighting spirit of a door mouse...

In fact on the battlefield they are best used a spectators, cheering on your other troops..

Yes! unfortunately my city garrisons only contain Town Watch and Archers so I was a bit limited in choice of unit.

What I was trying to do was keep the Gladiators busy whilst I slipped some archers through the breach behind them, captured the walls and towers and then use missile fire to elminate the defenders.

It's worked ok to begin with and despite heavy casualties the Town Watch sacrificed themselves to cover the Archers but then the sneaky AI brought a Cavalry unit round the boundary road and directly into the flank of my watchmen which was just too much for them to handle and they ran for the hills leaving my archers stranded. Damned nice move by the AI as the cavalry came on so fast I didn't have time to react.

Now, I have Extermination Armies in each area ready to deal with revolts and just let my City Garrisons sit and watch the slaughter.

[Paul Peru]

I'm no superhero, just a decent SP player who would be hopeless if I tried MP.
(I pause...)
I've won battles in RTW against vastly superior opposition.

The key is routing them, which is too easy. Outflank an enemy unit, and make them rout.
Once they start routing, you just have to look menacingly at the rest of the enemy army. "Run away!! Run away!!"
Of course this is bordering on an exploit, especially if one uses cavalry, but of course one hardly does. I can't help it if they put the general on a horse!

[Didz]

I'm no superhero, just a decent SP player who would be hopeless if I tried MP.
(I pause...)
I've won battles in RTW against vastly superior opposition.

The key is routing them, which is too easy. Outflank an enemy unit, and make them rout.

Once they start routing, you just have to look menacingly at the rest of the enemy army. "Run away!! Run away!!"

Of course this is bordering on an exploit, especially if one uses cavalry, but of course one hardly does. I can't help it if they put the general on a horse!

Well its an expliot, but a perfectly valid one.

I remember the good old days when I had the time and space for Tabletop Wargaming and under the Wargames Research Group rules exactly what you describe would be equally true.

I remember one game where my opponent had placed an unsupported artillery battery on one flank of his line, supposedly to cover it.

My Cuirassiers took it out in one charge routing it into the infantry unit on its flank and then proceeded to roll up the entire of his battle line from left to right with each routing unit spreading panic to the next.

Historically, one squadron of French lancers routed an entire Spanish Army in one battle. So, its not a bug its just that the AI obviosly isn't anticipating the risk and protecting itself against it.

[Khorak]

I like being a siege defender with stone walls against the comp. I always like to see if I can get an enemy to try and assult a stonewalled city because all you need to three tough units to turn almost any number of them into bacon bits. Two on the walls to hold them, and one in front of the gate.

Either they'll batter down the gate, all try to charge through, get piled up in front of the tough unit waiting at the gate and get boiling oiled in their hundreds until they run (works especially well against the vast Macedonian cavalry armies), or their inital wall attackers will get creamed along with the extra wave they send up, and the rest will stand there getting shot to pieces until they leave.

In such a manner I've had Spartans be responsible for 1000 dead cavalrymen simply because their unit is so tough the enemy couldn't break through it and past the Gate Of Doom.

[Didz]

I like being a siege defender with stone walls against the comp.

Must admit I have yet to witness the AI make a successful seige assault.

I normally find that they try and starve you into surrender but that a sally can lure them into deadly killing range of the archers and towers of your walls.

There have been a few exceptions where the AI has refused to play the game and one where my sally force got systematically slaughtered as it tried to provoke an assault.

I've also been beaten a couple of times by AI defenders sallying out of a city and breaking my seige mainly becuase they are damned sneaky and don't come out of the gate you are guarding.

[chemchok]

Must admit I have yet to witness the AI make a successful seige assault.

I normally find that they try and starve you into surrender but that a sally can lure them into deadly killing range of the archers and towers of your walls.

There have been a few exceptions where the AI has refused to play the game and one where my sally force got systematically slaughtered as it tried to provoke an assault.

I've also been beaten a couple of times by AI defenders sallying out of a city and breaking my seige mainly becuase they are damned sneaky and don't come out of the gate you are guarding.

I had a memorable AI city assault by one of the Roman factions during the Civil War. The AI built several ladders, two battering rams, and three siege towers. Even with three elite legionary cohorts and several archer auxilla it was tough to hold the walls because of the sheer number of troops that were thrown at me. I just wish the AI actually assaulted my cities like that more often.