A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW

[Quietus]

In my games the increase due to paved roads is 100%. It's 50% for Highways.

Oops, typo. I quickly checked my conclusion papers, I did put down "road -->paved = 2x" too. I'll double-check the mess of data papers to be absolutely sure.

Trade Fluctuations - I suspect this is to do with population changes.

The increments do not happen concurrently though. Example, land trade w/ settlement A,B,D, increases but not C,E etc. Or you're saying population changes in the others settlements not the original?

Basically, the more populated the market is, the more money everyone gets (imports and exports)

I have to dispute this. I checked for population effect on trade but there's no relationship I've seen. For example: Tingi gets 1700+ denari income from exporting the same stuff to Corduba, but only about 200+ denari with Carthago Nova. Maybe it is distance related?

Originally Posted by Quietus
I have two test provinces with the same population and the same taxes, but the equation for this relationship is nary obvious.

You have two settlements with the same population, no Governors, same tax rate, same difficulty level, but have different tax incomes? I've never seen this in my games. Would you mind making the game available to me? I thought I had tax income pretty much solved. Ho hum

No governors, Normal tax, no Rebels, same difficulty level, in-game (Arretium and Arimium). SAME taxes collected, same population.
Arretium = 5232 pop, 745 denari tax.
Arimium = 5230 pop, 745 denari tax.

Uhm, sorry, I'll check your old posts.

Sea Imports – Sea import income is ALWAYS 20% of the exporter income.
Example:
Settlement A has a 100 denari export income for exporting to Settlement B;
Settlement B gets 20 denari Sea Import income as a result.
This is regardless of roads, trade buildings, ports, governors or any other factors that are involved in the trade. There can be possible limits to this relationship (see Sea Import Routes).
Sea Import Routes – You can see them by which directions the trade ships are moving. There are instances that Sea Import income isn’t being reported, despite a Sea Export to that settlement is being reported in another town. Thus, there may be some cap that limits how much can be imported by a town. Unlike, sea exports where the number of routes are determined by port type, this is not so in sea imports. More tests will be needed.

2. 2 cities can export the same resource to a city. While both of those 2 cities get export income, the city being exported to gets import income from only one of them.

Andrew, is that what you're replying to? Oh nice, will have check this out.

I'll attend to all your comments, infos, and corrections. Thx for the replies, and again please, if you find any mistakes, speak up.

[therother]

The increments do not happen concurrently though. Example, land trade w/ settlement A,B,D, increases but not C,E etc. Or you're saying population changes in the others settlements not the original?

I'm not sure, I'd have to see your data to see exactly what you mean.

I have to dispute this. I checked for population effect on trade but there's no relationship I've seen. For example: Tingi gets 1700+ denari income from exporting the same stuff to Corduba, but only about 200+ denari with Carthago Nova. Maybe it is distance related?

I think perhaps distance is a factor, but trade income is most definitely affected by population. Absolutely no question - I've seen what happens when you change populations. You lose money from exports, the imports you already get, and you might lose entire import routes. [see example]

Tax: Sorry I misread the original post. Damn my speed reading skills. OTOH, I'm not meant to be 'wasting' time here at all...

Of course, I forgot another geographical restriction on sea trade: you can't sea trade with a settlement you have a land route with! But maybe that was obvious.

Oh, and trade income doesn't seem to be affected by campaign difficulty.


Hacking Athens down by 75%

 
Pop	30074	7500		Pop	Goods
Land
Lari	547	518		28414	Ag,Fe, OO
Therm	549	520		29777	Ag,Fe, OO
Cor	595	555		17949	Ag,Fe, OO,Tim,Marb
Imports
Spart	307	283		20830	Not Reported
Rhod	160	n/a		22515	Tim
Thess	145	134		23466	AU, Tim
Kyd	191	176		20564	Dye
Sard	166	151		16379	Tim, Marb,Text
Byz	120	n/a		23121	AU, Tim
Perg	161	147		18393	Tim,Wine,Text
Exports
Kyd	1364	1260		20564	Ag,OO
Perg	960	862		18393	Fe,OO
Sard	906	797		16379	Fe,OO

Totals	6171	5403

One thing to note: the trade income, as given in the trade summary scroll, is different than the figure given in the Settlement Details scroll. Is this just in my games, or is everyone seeing this? FYI, the corresponding drop in actual income is 7067 to 6165 Denarii.

[andrewt]

Andrew, is that what you're replying to? Oh nice, will have check this out.

I'll attend to all your comments, infos, and corrections. Thx for the replies, and again please, if you find any mistakes, speak up.

Yeah, that was what I was replying to.

For trade, distance seems to be the biggest factor. Halicarnassus and Rhodes are exporting 2000+ each to each other in my game. The largest sea exports tend to be cities right next to each other.

[therother]

If distance is a primarily determinate of the value of a route, then that would certainly explain the lack of really long trade routes in the game. I have some fiendishly simple ideas to test if this is indeed the case, but they will have to wait.

Just noticed an odd thing: the trade income from Byzantium (to Athens) dipped (~7%) when I constructed the Imperial Palace. It only went back up to its previous level when I built a Curia. Very curious indeed.

No time to investigate further on either point though. Perhaps tomorrow.

[Tamur]

the trade income from Byzantium (to Athens) dipped (~7%) when I constructed the Imperial Palace.

I've had the same thing happen when finishing trade-building upgrades. I finally did find my data file from that test I ran two weeks ago. Will have to dig it out and get some income-dip percentages for each of the buildings, but it was quite consistent IIRC.

[Tamur]

Also re: trade distance, there must be something to this. The largest income cities I've ever had have been pairs like Londinium/Samarobriva, Corduba/Tingi, and Patavium/Ariminum.

Didn't think about that at all until I saw your post andrewt, good point.

[therother]

Also re: trade distance, there must be something to this.

A bit more data, this time from Kydonia:

Pop	Import	Town	DisCity	DisPort
16379	469	Sardis	25	15.5
18595	489	Perga	30	20

DisCity is the city-city straightline distance.
DisPort is the straightline distance from the rally point of each port.

Only thing I would say is that it may go on the length of trade route itself, which is much, much harder to quantify.

[therother]

A bit more data, this time from Tarentum.

Pop	Exports	Town	DisCity	DisPort	Resources	
15516	1436	Salona	12.5	9	Only Cu
28733	1296	Apollo	10	4.5	Cu, Timb
29777	613	Therm	20	11.5	Cu, Timb

Only thing I would say this time is that Tarentum is my capital, and I've always suspected funny things happen with it.

Oh, and if you notice that Apollonia is ~half the distance than Thermon, and the income is also roughly half, despite having similar populations. So, my current theory is that distance plays a major role, whilst population plays a more minor role.

[Quietus]

I'm not sure, I'd have to see your data to see exactly what you mean.

Example: N.M (forgot which test was this)
Prov. (turn)(turn+1)(turn+2)
Land trade:
Lem (149)(150)(152)
Lug (204)(205)(205)
Mas (118)(119)(120)
Osc (78)(79)(79)
Sea Imports:
Arr (93)(93)(99)
Seg(80)(81)(81)
Sea Exports:
Arr (319)(320)(321)
Pal (273)(277)(278)

What's causing those tiny number increases? When testing and calculating 40 denari values and lower, you can understand how it can change the deviation by a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
I have to dispute this. I checked for population effect on trade but there's no relationship I've seen. For example: Tingi gets 1700+ denari income from exporting the same stuff to Corduba, but only about 200+ denari with Carthago Nova. Maybe it is distance related?

I think perhaps distance is a factor, but trade income is most definitely affected by population. Absolutely no question - I've seen what happens when you change populations. You lose money from exports, the imports you already get, and you might lose entire import routes. [see example]

Interesting results. I also forgot to mention that Carthago Nova has about 16000+ pop while Corduba has 15000+ pop. Perhaps, distance is a much bigger factor. Also, no trade buildings were destroyed when you reduced the population?

Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
the trade income from Byzantium (to Athens) dipped (~7%) when I constructed the Imperial Palace.

I've had the same thing happen when finishing trade-building upgrades. I finally did find my data file from that test I ran two weeks ago. Will have to dig it out and get some income-dip percentages for each of the buildings, but it was quite consistent IIRC.

That is weird. So there's level-dependency too when factoring trade income? BTW, the trade routes never changed at all?

[therother]

Also, no trade buildings were destroyed when you reduced the population?

Absolutely nothing changed but the population, not even the date!

So there's level-dependency too when factoring trade income? BTW, the trade routes never changed at all?

No changes, no. I'm being to suspect a situation similar to what it was for squalor - only more complicated! Which if it is, I think we may never get a good handle on the numbers, unless a Dev comes in and gives us the equations behind them.

Edit: Thanks for the numbers. Some of them could well be population changes, but one or two look a bit odd.