Economic/Population model changes

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hello everyone!

This thread is dedicated to the the Economic/Population model changes sub-group.

For those working on this group, start posting your info here, instead of the general EB MOD thread.

[[cF]HanBaal]

Don't wanna mess with the ones working here, but I think the growing and upgrading of cities is too fast (leading for example to very fast Marian reforms by the roman factions, though this may not be enough and a 'date blocker' would be nice). To solve this I suggest that instead of downsizing the growth of population stats (as I heard some suggest), one could simply rise the numbers needed to step up the next phase. The current is sth like (not sure):
-2000
-6000
-12000
-24000

I suggest sth like:
-2000
-8000
-20000
-40000

Another thing is that the recruiting of troops is hardly felt in and by the population. There should be a 'recruitable segment' refering to males in age and/or able to be drafted. But the most displeasant thing (in all the tw series imo) is the impossibility to train several units in one turn (6 months). If one has the money and the manpower available, it should be possible and would add so much more to the game.


---

About economics here's some maps regarding some changes you guys wanna make:


West Med resources for farms, mines and trade


East Med resources for farms and trade


Aegean resources in more detail


Iberian resources in more detail


Another suggestion, bring the mines income MUCH higher! In ancient times having thriving gold/silver mines allowed nations to hire entire armies in no time... it really made the difference and that's sth that is also totally incorrect in the tw series.

[khelvan]

Don't wanna mess with the ones working here, but I think the growing and upgrading of cities is too fast (leading for example to very fast Marian reforms by the roman factions, though this may not be enough and a 'date blocker' would be nice). To solve this I suggest that instead of downsizing the growth of population stats (as I heard some suggest), one could simply rise the numbers needed to step up the next phase. The current is sth like (not sure):
-2000
-6000
-12000
-24000

I suggest sth like:
-2000
-8000
-20000
-40000

This is impossible. The population requirements to move from one city size to the next is hard coded, as stated by Jerome. So we have been tackling it through reducing base farm levels so far. Unfortunately some of our members seem to think this reduces income too much.

Personally, I still find the game far too easy due to the amount of income coming in. As soon as we have our passworded forum up and running I invite you all to comment on this, as the download link for the current internal build will be posted.

[The Wizard]

I agree with HanBaal, although I'll leave the details to those who can mod; cities grow too fast and the tech-tree is too easy to access.

In MTW, it took you 250-300 turns just to get to the final tier of castle-building (citadel?) while concentrating on just one troop-type (like sword inf). In my current Julii campaign, I got Patavium, my capital, to huge city after 101 turns. Add to that the fact that you no longer need to have combinations of buildings to produce different, more powerful troops, and you'll find yourself fighting with the same troops for the next 300 turns.

The Romans would escape this slur, because of the Marian reforms. But hey, what's this? Oh yeah, the new legionaries come rolling out of the same buildings which produced my hastati, principes and triarii! One day, Marian reforms, the next, legions of Urban Cohorts and legionaries armed in lorica segmentata! So this second techtree of the Romans, immediately accessible, and not with a lot of variation, barely keeps them elevated above the slur of the rest of the factions, who have no second techtree and share almost all their units. It really seems to be rushed, unimaginitive and an overall sloppy job from CA.

So if we succeed in slowing down city-growth, and making the tech-tree harder to access (plus expanding the unit roster, perhaps), we can make this game more interesting by adding greater depth and more enticing factions, because the latter all have their own unique units and tactics.

~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

This is impossible. The population requirements to move from one city size to the next is hard coded, as stated by Jerome. So we have been tackling it through reducing base farm levels so far. Unfortunately some of our members seem to think this reduces income too much.

Personally, I still find the game far too easy due to the amount of income coming in. As soon as we have our passworded forum up and running I invite you all to comment on this, as the download link for the current internal build will be posted.

We'll, I have to say I've changed my mind on that. The money generated on my Aetolian League campaign is really starting to flow. It was just a slower start. I currently have 70000 denari in the bank and I'm able to build anything.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I agree with HanBaal, although I'll leave the details to those who can mod; cities grow too fast and the tech-tree is too easy to access.

In MTW, it took you 250-300 turns just to get to the final tier of castle-building (citadel?) while concentrating on just one troop-type (like sword inf). In my current Julii campaign, I got Patavium, my capital, to huge city after 101 turns. Add to that the fact that you no longer need to have combinations of buildings to produce different, more powerful troops, and you'll find yourself fighting with the same troops for the next 300 turns.

The Romans would escape this slur, because of the Marian reforms. But hey, what's this? Oh yeah, the new legionaries come rolling out of the same buildings which produced my hastati, principes and triarii! One day, Marian reforms, the next, legions of Urban Cohorts and legionaries armed in lorica segmentata! So this second techtree of the Romans, immediately accessible, and not with a lot of variation, barely keeps them elevated above the slur of the rest of the factions, who have no second techtree and share almost all their units. It really seems to be rushed, unimaginitive and an overall sloppy job from CA.

So if we succeed in slowing down city-growth, and making the tech-tree harder to access (plus expanding the unit roster, perhaps), we can make this game more interesting by adding greater depth and more enticing factions, because the latter all have their own unique units and tactics.

~Wiz

Wiz? You're saying that because you haven't played the EB MOD Alpha 0.1. It's very different in economics. Much harder to keep the money flowing. Specially for Romans.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Don't wanna mess...

Great maps, [cF]HanBaal!!!

[khelvan]

We'll, I have to say I've changed my mind on that. The money generated on my Aetolian League campaign is really starting to flow. It was just a slower start. I currently have 70000 denari in the bank and I'm able to build anything.

Hah, I told you to just wait a bit - the middle game is where you start seeing the cash roll in. Sure, it is more challenging at the start, but that isn't a bad thing.

Now if you can convince Dead Moroz then as far as I know we are unanimous that the game still gets too easy even with the farm level reductions. I will start looking at further economic changes, such as reduction of trade income, if we agree we should tweak the model more.

[khelvan]

So if we succeed in slowing down city-growth, and making the tech-tree harder to access (plus expanding the unit roster, perhaps), we can make this game more interesting by adding greater depth and more enticing factions, because the latter all have their own unique units and tactics.

~Wiz

I can, and have, slowed down population growth through a reduction in base farm levels. Unfortunately I still think population grows to fast.

As I have said above we can't change population requirements, these are hard coded.

We can, however, change building requirements. We can force the player/AI to have built certain improvements before moving on to the next governor's building. Now this is an artificial limit but I think it can work. Start thinking about what building requirements they should have, and I can implement it for testing in the next build.

[The Wizard]

Wiz? You're saying that because you haven't played the EB MOD Alpha 0.1. It's very different in economics. Much harder to keep the money flowing. Specially for Romans.

Yeah, I'm talking about RTW plain unmodded vanilla v1.1...



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Yeah, I'm talking about RTW plain unmodded vanilla v1.1...


~Wiz

Want to test it? PM me or khelvan and I'll include you on the gameplay testing group.