Unit Screenshots

[Barbarian King]

I would just like to say prometheus and everybody here is doing an outstanding job and i am really looking foward to this mod. The new units look great but i have no clue what they should look like.

[Steppe Merc]

I think also that the colors be darker adds realism to the whole and making them more colourfull would make them stick out of all the others and look more plastic and unreal ..... bright colours never exhisted in nature....

I disagree. Their needs to be more color, espically for the Gauls and the Steppe warriors. They loved their colors... they never wore anything drab, espically the steppe horse archers.

Waht is the problem with the heavy cav?

Well the whole thing with the armour... not to mention them using a kontus with one hand. Also, the current cataphract is good really only for an elite noble unit, as most cataphracts would have been far poorer equipped, often not using horse armour at all, or perhaps half. Only the richest could use full horse armour... but it never covered the horses rump as it does in this game (horses do need to run and to poop, after all).

[PROMETHEUS]

Their needs to be more color, espically for the Gauls and the Steppe warriors. They loved their colors... they never wore anything drab, espically the steppe horse archers.

Colour is ok but bright colours are not realistics...

[Colovion]

Colour is ok but bright colours are not realistics...

depends on the kinds of colors, I suppose

Guys, I think what PROMETHEUS needs is an example of the colors you require to make it better - doesn't the Osprey thread have all that, though?

[Steppe Merc]

Check out the Parthian guys in the secret thread, and my Celtic guys... who are around somewhere, I think in the original EB thread.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Can anybody show pictures of Celtiberian warriors? I wonder that they have chain mail.

Don't doubt it. After all the Celts were the inventores of mail. It's proven that some of the descendents of Celtic invaders in Iberia had them. Here is one good pic:

[PROMETHEUS]

Right the picture I used

[Urnamma]

You don't have to fight for this , but since I have to listen to others people too I have to get a compromize , there are severall historians may be here , all with different opinins , me as well included this doesn't mean that me , you or someone else is right ,listening to ancient fonts is right , but sometimes as always they have many contraddictions so is better to rely on a media of opinions than on a single one....that is why befoure changing anything I want discussion and have severall opinions...since I may be wronga, but you as well...

Well, the relevant people to ask are me, [cF]HanBaal, and Aymar. Carthage is our area of expertise. I highly doubt you'll get a different answer from them.

I listen to objections otherwise I wouldn't post previews , but ... those are Chartaginian mercenaries not really carthaginian troops so they retained their original dresses , also about the shioeld half moon since I guessed this is a symbol of Carthage i placed on the shield too would take few to paint it , the motiph adds variance to the shield , suggest aniother one if u like but without it the shield would look empty ....I think also that the colors be darker adds realism to the whole and making them more colourfull would make them stick out of all the others and look more plastic and unreal ..... bright colours never exhisted in nature....

First of all, lemme say that you're absolutely right on bright colors. Only bright white, purple, and red existed in the ancient world, due to the dyes being available (for white, only certain chemicals were needed, akin to modern bleach).

Liby-Phoenicians are indeed Carthaginian troops. Every relevant source I've seen puts them wearing white tunics. History is not a democracy, neither is truth. Ergo, there should be white tunics. Why are you worried about this, I know why I am. I'm a near eastern historian, I get a bit uppity about stuff like this, but c'mon, having to debate this stuff in class does that to you. Your model looks great except for the white tunics and meander pattern on the shield.

I'll use reason here... They live in the desert. Most people in the desert wear light and airy clothing, and have a tradition of wearing white. It keeps heat out. Ergo, their tunics would be white.

As for the meander, source material never mentions it, and Carthage tended to dislike the Sicilian Greeks. The meander pattern was strongly identified with Greeks. Therefore, the meander would almost certainly not have been used.

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, you just tend to be a bit of a rebel, my friend. Working together is good stuff. We want this stuff to look as historical as possible, not as nice as possible. It'd be cool to have guys in gilded plate armor with embossed bronze inscriptions on the front and what not, but it didn't exist. So, we have to use something less out of a fantasy novel and more out of Diadoros, so to speak.

[PSYCHO V]

Yup, was going to scan and post that myself. Good job Prom. (get online Prom )

Apologies to those guys expecting the celts units this morn. A few minor changes before we finally finish them.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Regarding the other pics that were used for inspiration:

Here are the Celts. I'll keep each book (Celts, Sarmatians and Parthians) in seperate posts.



Early La Tene warriors, late 5th century BCE
Right, these chaps are slightly earlier than our time period, but I liked it as it showed the clothing and armor quite well, as well as showing that they all have shirts on. The old guy is a chieftan, and notice in addition to his sword he has mutliple spears. The Guy on the right is a well off warrior, while the one on the right is a simple free tribal warrior. All wear checked or striped clothes.



Gallic Warriors of the Middle La Tene 35d- 2nd BCE
The naked guy is one of the Gaesatae, actaully a tribe that was famous for fighting naked. These would be similar to the Naked Fanatics, but note that he doesn't have the punk rock hairdo. The other foot soldier is frome the Marne district, and again has a shirt. The horsmen has the famous eagle helmet, and it's wings flap as he rides. He is quite well equpiied , and has iron mail. This would probably be a noble unit, but not that of the generals. Note the two javilens.



Gallic Cavlarymen of the Late La Tene period, 1st century BCE
Some more Cavalry men. They again, all have shirts. They are more poor soldiers, their helms actaully being scavenged from Romans. In the desc there's an excellent part of Celtic horse strategy:
"These riders would normally throw their javelins immediately before contact; the heavier thrusting spear would be used at close quaters, and finnaly the sword might be drawn"
In the back, there's a dude with a celtic war trumpet that has a boar on it, possibly inspiring CA's choice to have on the unit flag of the Gauls a boar.



British Chariot and Crew, 55 BCE
A beutiful picture of a chariot, sorry that the middle's a bit cut off, as it's a two page spread. The poorer driver (the one with woad on him) would manuever the chariot at incredible speeds, while their nobleman passenger would throw javellins. They would dismount to fight against infantry, while the driver would move the chariot off ready to pick up the nobleman.



Celtic Light infantry types 1st century BCE, 1st century CE
Light infantry types, these do have no shirts, but that's because their all light infantry, and likely poor. The slingers were quite common, while the bowmen were rarer. The light swordsmen were supposedly quite good, but were deffeated by Germanic auxalries. The javileneers are young men not yet strong enough to trade swords with the grown men, so they used javilens instead as their main weapon.

[PROMETHEUS]

Quote from the osprey book


The African heavy infantry was equipped in the greek hoplite style until 117 bc when many where rearmed with captured roman mail shirts shields and pila . the rear ranks probably still retained the earlier long pike thus corresponding to the roman triariius and our figure shows such a soldier with roman mail but with the pike shield and helmet of the Macedonian type believed to have been adopted by the carthaginians....

this shows that they didn'nt dislike greek style and this is the reason why I used that pattern .... about the mail anyway this I guess would be a later unit may be and in beginning should use linen cuirass , about the colour I don't know , I saw other sources showing about red colour for this unit not the carthaginian army in the whole , for making all plain similar we could use white tunics but i doubt that there was such an homogenuity and anyway I don't care too muc for the colour , just think is more right the red , after all the phoenicians had the source of this colour .....

[Urnamma]

A fair amount of knowledge on Phoenicians and Carthaginians in particular was published around 1990. The Osprey book is a little out-dated...

Like I said though, if you want consensus, ask Aymar or [cF]HanBaal.

We already have an Elite African Infantry unit that shows Roman tactical influence on the list. The Liby-Phoenicians are the phalanx, from 270 B.C. onwards.

PROM, I'd love to collude with you on some units, but we need to agree on what to put down first before you skin it. That's avoid problems. IM me on MSN, if you like.

[PROMETHEUS]

great add me to your contacts so we can haev a better convo..... invite extended to all....

please read my email inmy profile....

[PROMETHEUS]

finallt elephants , but every units strongly needs all the cas files or the game will become unplayable since at severall distances the game changes model......

[Ahilleas]

goodmorning to all

Well guys maybe i dont know anything about 3d modelling but i know about colour and painting. So if you want an opinion this is what i have to say.
First theres got to be an overall same amount of detail in figures and colour hues. it shouldnt be a highly detail almost realistic unit side by side with a not so detail. See the mod as a painting. It has to have the same style everywhere. Not detailed here and less detail there. The same with colors. Look guys you cant copy nature in a pc game. The opinion that colors in antiquity were less bright is correct to a point but this is a game. Not life. Its fake sky and fake sun and fake enviroment and lighting so a drab hue will look more drab. For example the cover of prometheus for the elephant is detailed yes but the hue of this red looks alien on the elephant. There are many blues reds etc. You see any Angus McBride illustrated figure allien to its enviroment? No! Why? Because he had to use blue for example but he used the one that blended best with the rest colors. I have seen only the units posted on this thread. They are GREAT but they lack either contrast sometimes or the right color hue. We must be able to see units in the enviroment not confuse them for some bush. Im not trying to play smart i just wanna help.
Also the osprey books are great but not always correct. Its the interpretation of an artist not a photo from that time.
. For example the greek persian war book is simply unacceptable. Maybe the best thing would be when everybody working on units finish, one person or 2 max to revise the whole thing together so there wont look like bits of many games put together. Dont see the unit just as unit but also in relation with the backgrount its gonna be placed, in this case the fake 3d world of activision. And remember enerytime you put an overdetailed object as carpet or horse/elephant cover ask your self. Do i have same amount of detail on unit face? weapons? clothes? etc. Or will this element will steal the protagonistic role from what Really matters?
Im open to listen others opinions

[Dead Moroz]

I think also that the colors be darker adds realism to the whole and making them more colourfull would make them stick out of all the others and look more plastic and unreal ..... bright colours never exhisted in nature....

It's not the matter of realism, it's just the matter of visibility. You made these guys too dark, they looks like in nighttime. Details are hard to be seen and recognized. You don't need to make the color looks plastic, just brighten the unit to make it more friendly for my poor eyes.

Look at this pic. I just quickly brightened it in Photoshop using just default Shadow/Highlight option. Of course it's not ideal and must be done better, but it shows that units looks better and details are more visible when the picture is brightened.

[Dead Moroz]

Ahilleas, if I understand right, you have good painting skills. So, could you make some new textures to illustrate your point of view? Maybe you and Prometheus should cooperate?

[PROMETHEUS]

this discussion would go better on msn tough...

We must be able to see units in the enviroment not confuse them for some bush. Im not trying to play smart i just wanna help.

this is more needed with sprites , since at the close look they are easily recognizeable ....

Moroz you see it dark becouse I choose evening setting and I placed the units in the dark side with sun behind them so not illuminated , trust that when are in the sun they look too bright , that is why i place them everytime in this setting and position .....

[Dead Moroz]

Moroz you see it dark becouse I choose evening setting and I placed the units in the dark side with sun behind them so not illuminated , trust that when are in the sun they look too bright , that is why i place them everytime in this setting and position .....

Could you, please, show screens of these guys in day light?

[PROMETHEUS]

Sure here it is ...If you still think is dark then I am sorry but I think that is your monitor problem....

[PSYCHO V]

Hmmm...think there pretty good..maybe a touch too dark in the mail.
To our budding artist, I wouldn't worry too much about balance. All units are being worked and reworked all the time.

As far as detail, we'll make them as realistic as possible without sacrificing performance. That's what this mod is all about, realism.

Eh Prom, you need to switch that MSN on when online and not just recommend it to others

[Ahilleas]

Ahilleas, if I understand right, you have good painting skills. So, could you make some new textures to illustrate your point of view? Maybe you and Prometheus should cooperate?

Im a graphic designer and im fond generally for every form of fine art. From pencil drawing to pyrography on instruments. I would really like to help my only problem is limited time. But if you need something especially from photoshop just tell me wht to do and i can work over weekend. You see guys design design all day eventually i ll freak out. I can help you also with digitazation of ornaments symbols shield decorations etc. Also maybe you can post me some images of finished or nearly finished units and i ll make some remarks on contrast/color hue issues.
As general remarks though keep in mind that the whole result must have a aesthetic unity. Also the UNIT must have the most detail not the cover of its mount for example. Im saying it again cause its really important.

[Dead Moroz]

Sure here it is ...If you still think is dark then I am sorry but I think that is your monitor problem....

Now I see they're ok. Thank you!

[eadingas]

Im a graphic designer and im fond generally for every form of fine art. From pencil drawing to pyrography on instruments. I would really like to help my only problem is limited time. But if you need something especially from photoshop just tell me wht to do and i can work over weekend. You see guys design design all day eventually i ll freak out. I can help you also with digitazation of ornaments symbols shield decorations etc. Also maybe you can post me some images of finished or nearly finished units and i ll make some remarks on contrast/color hue issues.

Hmm I take it you wouldn't want to do some building graphics...?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hmm I take it you wouldn't want to do some building graphics...?

HE!HE!HE! Recruiting?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Im a graphic designer and im fond generally for every form of fine art. From pencil drawing to pyrography on instruments. I would really like to help my only problem is limited time. But if you need something especially from photoshop just tell me wht to do and i can work over weekend. You see guys design design all day eventually i ll freak out. I can help you also with digitazation of ornaments symbols shield decorations etc. Also maybe you can post me some images of finished or nearly finished units and i ll make some remarks on contrast/color hue issues.
As general remarks though keep in mind that the whole result must have a aesthetic unity. Also the UNIT must have the most detail not the cover of its mount for example. Im saying it again cause its really important.

I agree.

Please do join! No problem in working at your own pace. Just PM me to confirm the job assignement you prefer. I'll add you to the work list.

[PROMETHEUS]

here is the first model sinished to test out ....


weeell moved to hidden forum.....

[Steppe Merc]

Should the Carthagians use African Elephants? Because theirs a very good indian elephant model that's already in game, just not used.

First of all, lemme say that you're absolutely right on bright colors. Only bright white, purple, and red existed in the ancient world, due to the dyes being available (for white, only certain chemicals were needed, akin to modern bleach).

I think your wrong... blue deffinetly existed. They come from woad, and certaint sea shells I believe.

[Ranika]

A great number of colors existed. Gallic cloaks, for example, often included many colors, indigos, reds, blues, hues of pink, green, yellow, etc. Just because dyes and such were scarce in certain regions hardly means everywhere lacked them. Many colors were plant extracts, but some were also made chemically, from oxidized metals and such (such as the blue body paints used in parts of Britain, not all of that was actually woad, but it produced a similar color).

[Colovion]

I think one thing we have to remember is that certain units WILL be drab, not eye catching or really remarkable by the colors in which they are portreyed; more of those units will be remarkable by the detail and realism they invoke - not so much the eye catchingness of them.