Unit Screenshots

[PROMETHEUS]

Sacred band infantry with linen cuirass.....

[Stormy]

Once again guys, Great work

[Steppe Merc]

I think that it would make more sense for them to have linen on horseback, at least. But that's just my opinoin. But I have read that muscled cuirass was uncomortable on horse.

[Stormy]

I would like to see a pic of all the new Carthaginian units in one picture all together if it isn't a problem Carthaginians is one of my favorite factions.

[PROMETHEUS]

I think both should have linen unles urnamma post a source where is stated that they used muscle cuirass......

[[cF]HanBaal]

I think both should have linen unles urnamma post a source where is stated that they used muscle cuirass......

"The Sacred Band at Krimisos in 341 BC are described (in Plutarch's "Life of Timoleon") as wearing iron cuirasses and bronze helmets, with huge round white leather shields - probably plain white, with no blazons."

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/shields.htm

BTW, Prometheus, why do you always leave a blank space in the balls' zone, with no leather stripes? AFAIK, the leather stripes covered all that space too. In the horses look ok as it would be sort of uncomfortable but not on infantry.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Sacred Band Cavalry......

Excellent work, but there is an error. You've incurred in the same error as CA. Metal Cuirasses do NOT have shoulder straps, let alone leather ones. The front and back parts are articulated through hinges and they are fixed by small straps on the sides (under the arms). Please correct that.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Sacred band infantry with linen cuirass.....

Excellent work!!! But is the shield symbol correct?

[Steppe Merc]

Rember that quote is from 341 BCE... Besides, ancient historians aren't exactly the best sources... as they tend to know nothing about real battle. I still think that they should have the linen cuirass.

[PROMETHEUS]

Carthaginian Shields
The evidence for the shields of Carthaginian citizen troops is summarised in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars", by Duncan Head.

It depends on the date of your army. The Sacred Band at Krimisos in 341 BC are described (in Plutarch's "Life of Timoleon") as wearing iron cuirasses and bronze helmets, with huge round white leather shields - probably plain white, with no blazons. Then there is a big gap lacking in reliable evidence, until the Third Roman-Punic War, when Strabo describes Carthage manufacturing thureoi - oval, Celtic- or Roman-style, shields.

Between these points, Greek-style hoplite-shields do appear in Carthaginian art, so it is probable that the citizen troops carried these until they adopted the oval shield - whenever that was. Silius Italicus' epic Latin poem the Punica describes troops "from Carthage" in Hannibal's army as barefoot, wearing red, and armed with swords and round leather shields - he uses "parma", the term used for the shields of Roman velites and cavalry, and thus probably implying a fairly light shield. But it is far from clear whether this is a realistic description or, like many of Silius' details, a fanciful poetic embroidery; and if it is a realistic description, it is also not clear who is being described.

Finally, the Chemtou monument is a Numidian royal construction of the 2nd century BC probably commemorating victory over the Carthaginians in the Third Punic War, when Numidia was a Roman ally. This depicts large, unblazoned, oval shields, and round shields with varied blazons in Greek style, including an eye, Herakles' club, Zeus' thunderbolt, and Athene's aigis. It is possible that one or both of these shield-styles copies Carthaginian equipment taken as trophies in this final war; but then again, they may be Hellenising artistic convention.

For Carthaginian citizen troops of the first and second Roman-Punic wars, I would be inclined to use hoplite shields, painted white, with individual blazons mixing Greek emblems and motifs taken from Carthaginian art such as horses, palm-trees, the "Hand of Baal" and the "Sign of Tanit". But that is largely guesswork.

According to this I have used


Moon symbol for the normal units,

Baal Symbol for the Sacred Band phalanx

Astarte simbol for the Sacred band cavalry

BTW, Prometheus, why do you always leave a blank space in the balls' zone, with no leather stripes? AFAIK, the leather stripes covered all that space too. In the horses look ok as it would be sort of uncomfortable but not on infantry.

because the game stretches this when they walk and looks ugly ......

Excellent work, but there is an error. You've incurred in the same error as CA. Metal Cuirasses do NOT have shoulder straps, let alone leather ones. The front and back parts are articulated through hinges and they are fixed my small straps on the sides (under the arms). Please correct that.

Is not an error Urnamma asked me to place it so I did , Anyway I amstill in doubt that those metal cuirasses should be used , Actually I am in doubt that the Sacred Band should be used since was disbanded time befoure the punic wars.....

But is the shield symbol correct?

Offering table with the circular symbol of Baal carved on the side. .....

Dunno if was used but according to ur description this is the only good one I guess

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Is not an error Urnamma asked me to place it so I did , Anyway I amstill in doubt that those metal cuirasses should be used , Actually I am in doubt that the Sacred Band should be used since was disbanded time befoure the punic wars.....

Then Urnamma is mistaken. Shoulder straps with linen armour, yes. With metal cuirasses, no.

As for the SBI, regarding history, although we know that they were disbanded before our time period, we do need an elite phalanx for Carthage so it should be used anyway. Besides, if we ever set the date earlier it won't be a question anymore.

Offering table with the circular symbol of Baal carved on the side. .....

Dunno if was used but according to ur description this is the only good one I guess

Fine by me...

[Urnamma]

Aymar, you're mistaken on this one. Check out the pic of the guy with the cuirass on. It clearly has shoulder straps. They should stay.

[Urnamma]

Sacred Band infantry should have muscle cuirass too, btw, not Linen. Remember, the Carthies copied off of the Sicilian Greeks, who still used the older fighting methods and technology (because they had no impetus to change it due to their not having contact with the Galatians and the Macedonians, let alone the Persians). They should be armored as a heavy hoplite, not as a lighter hoplite. IMHO, of course

[PSYCHO V]

Aymar, you're mistaken on this one. Check out the pic of the guy with the cuirass on. It clearly has shoulder straps. They should stay.

I think you'd find that it's a hardened leather not metal cuirass in that pic. Just my2bob

[DemonArchangel]

Then Urnamma is mistaken. Shoulder straps with linen armour, yes. With metal cuirasses, no.

As for the SBI, regarding history, although we know that they were disbanded before our time period, we do need an elite phalanx for Carthage so it should be used anyway. Besides, if we ever set the date earlier it won't be a question anymore.


Fine by me...

Excuse me?

You're the same guy that said Palestinian clubmen and Equites Sagitarii weren't allowed.

[Steppe Merc]

He's the boss. He has the final say... Besides Clubmen? That sounds very fishy to me, and besides, their pretty much like peasants. It's a waste of unit space.
Besides, theirs a difference between older units, and units that haven't appeared yet. The older units likely go on longer than they are last recorded.

[DemonArchangel]

The clubmen aren't peasants, they're heavily armored, and carry a 6 foot long, metal studded club.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Aymar, you're mistaken on this one. Check out the pic of the guy with the cuirass on. It clearly has shoulder straps. They should stay.

HE!HE!HE! I knew you would say something like that. I even know the site were you got that pic from. But as PSYCHO V said that is a pic from a leather armour. Like this one:



Effectivelly, in most Roman cerimonial metal armour, specially the important generals or it's guard, the artisan making the armour would include imitation "straps" made of metal. This was made to replicate the look of the leather cuirasses in the above image. But these were an ornament. They were extruded from the metal of the cuirass, they weren't a separate part. You still rellied on hinges to articulate the front and back metal parts and the tightening was made with small leather straps on the sides (almost invisible). You can see this clearly if you look closelly any statue of Caesar or Augustus.

Prima Porta Augustus. Embossed muscle cuirass with a single row of pteruges attached at the shoulder openings and to the bottom edge of the cuirass. Vatican Museum.



Detail of the lorica of the Prima Porta Augustus. Vatican Museum (Robinson 1975: 152).

You can see the hinges in the topmost part of these photo.



And in this one:





The "real" battle worthy cuirasses were like this:

Bronze metal muscle cuirass, Etruscan 5th to 3rd century B.C. Showing hinges and tie rings located on the left side. British Museum (Robinson 1975: 147).


Athenian Hoplite circa 300BC:



See? No shoulder straps. They should be taken out.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Excuse me?

You're the same guy that said Palestinian clubmen and Equites Sagitarii weren't allowed.

Palestinian Clubmen - Show me historical excerpts.

Equites Sagitarii - Late Imperial age. Centuries from our timescope.

Sacred Band Infantry - Out of time by a couple of decades only.

[Stormy]

Aymar is our main man! Fighting with him will get you cutt by his falcata

Plus, Palestinian clubmen sounds a bit off no ? I'm thinking like a few hundred years later from the game time line and dark age period but I could be wrong but it does sound odd to me too.

[Stormy]

@ PROMETHEUS
I really like the shield on the back and it looks very good.

[PROMETHEUS]

leather armour

...

LEATHER ARMOUR WASN'T USED BY ROMANS IS A hOLLIWOOD INVENTION FOR MAKIN MASSIVE SCALE ARMOURS BUT THEY WHERE A FAKE !!!

[PROMETHEUS]

Also I want to say that this Sacred band should be available by beginning and be not buildable again so will bea unit destined to extincion since so was historically ....I want to know what to use for the phalanx too ... also Urnamma described another elite unit the Afrivcan unit so there is another elite unit.....

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

LEATHER ARMOUR WASN'T USED BY ROMANS IS A hOLLIWOOD INVENTION FOR MAKIN MASSIVE SCALE ARMOURS BUT THEY WHERE A FAKE !!!

Then that English reenactor is ridiculously wrong? Prove it.

And why should Augustus statues use shoulder straps AND hinges too? The straps aren't connecting anything. They are just there for embelishment. Nothing else. Why would the Romans put shoulder straps in the metal cuirasses if not to imitate the shoulder straps of leather armour and mail?

[Odysseus]

Come on, stop arguing about shoulder straps and hinges. How many players are going to go "Look! They have shoulder straps and they had hinges at this time! I'm never going to play this game again!". Soon you'll be arguing about the Sacred Band Infantry having mustard stains on their shirts......

[Stormy]

They are not arguing Odysseus, They are only exchanging ideas. We are trying to make the units somewhat accurate and historical. We are only doing positive criticism and that is part of a working team.

[PSYCHO V]

Please people!!

There were no "Palestinian" anything in this period. It's pure fantasy!

That my dear friends is fact, so can we please move on and focus on what really did exist.

Thanks

[Dead Moroz]

Sacred Band Cavalry......

Good work, Prometheus! Just correct two things:
1. The shield must not be behind the back. It's march order. In battle such shield is useless. They must hold it in hand like any other units.
2. Maybe it's just me but something should be done with their faces. It's too blurry. And they looks like they gonna cry right now.

Sacred band infantry with linen cuirass.....

Marvellous!

[PROMETHEUS]

1. The shield must not be behind the back. It's march order. In battle such shield is useless. They must hold it in hand like any other units.
2. Maybe it's just me but something should be done with their faces. It's too blurry. And they looks like they gonna cry right now.

1 U are right to me but Urnamma asked them to have like this ...

2 U are right here too , but this is a previous pic , now I already fixed it and the lances too....

[eadingas]

If they have shields like that they shouldn't get shield bonuses... Unless this is a special coward shield for retreating :)