Unit Screenshots

[Ranika]

You seemed to 'know well' that Firbolg were 'mythical', when in reality they were Belgae in Hibernia. The Gauls invented many, many things the Romans (and Greeks, and numerous other societies) adopted. Just because they didn't write doesn't mean they weren't military innovaters. They were, in fact, quite intelligent.

Rome was not sacked by a horde of undisciplined imbeciles. It was sacked by the Gallic equivalent of Hannibal, Alexander, or Caesar, a military genius who obiliterated the northern forces of Rome (maybe a tad exaggerative of his prowess, but he was clearly a great leader and general). Brennos was not a man commanding hordes of unwashed barbarians, he commanded a trained, intelligent force, with professional warriors.

Roman and Greek authors write much of Gallic tactics and war-like behavior, but they also tend to embellish things. Livy said the great hardships Gauls endured, when serving Carthaginian armies, then immediately called them lazy. The Gauls sacked and humiliated Rome, Roman opinion is more than a little biased against them. It's not that Gauls had elaborate legions or what not, but they were not undisciplined hordes. They were combinations of young, inexperienced warriors, who probably acted in hordes, mercenary "tribes" who didn't feel the need to 'advance' with times (Gaesatae), and true professionals. The Romans changed their manner of war because of Gauls, that means that Gauls had to have truly impressed the Romans with their war against them.

It has nothing to do with nationalistic pride, I'm not a Gaul. I'm a Gael, and they fought significantly different (combinations of Gallic and British tactics). I have respect for Roman militarism, but the Romans adopted things constantly, that was what made them good. They would take the better aspects of their enemy's militaries, and make them their own (such as Gallic helmets, Spanish swords, etc.).

[Dead Moroz]

this is only a reskin for the barbarian infantry mercs .... I added fur to their dresses , how it looks like?

I think we need this unit for northern regions rebels (and mercenaries) such as Aestii, Fenni, Scandinavians.

Just two notes, Prometheus.
1. The fur should be (imho) more fluffy and a bit lighter (to make its relief more visible).
2. Why he have double strap?

[PROMETHEUS]

Ranika I won't quote ur post since is too long ....Don't wonnna start to explain all what I already did to Urnamma on the msn ....

But

1st

I havent said Gauls were imbecilles or stupid, would be like saying my ancestors were stupid since I should track my origins back to venetii , Romans and Greeks...

2
they didnt invent the testudo

3
Caesar describes them using a sort of testudo approiaching gates to set them on fire


this is something that can be performed by few men and is alogical thing to do to cover urself ...probably every army did this in their tactics....when u come to romans , they made this thing into a full operative machine made with lots of people on highh scalke manouvers wich requires quite a bit of training to do that ......

SO this is not going to be in gaul tactics ....Or totherwise better swith legions to gauls .....Here people tend to make things better for others just couse they found one reference hidden in a dusty place ...that doesn't make the norma out of it..... remember that the gauls didn't invent this ,they may have used a similar tactic that is exactly not the same thing but could be described as becouse of the look..... Romans did even use balistas and such like manubalistas but this doesn't allow us to make a new unit of balestriers and such.....

And About Livy he describes what he heard and is used to know .... try to describe the chaunt of war of the gauls to the maori and u would probably call it Haka but this isnot the same thing even if could be described as .....


4

To say that they USED something that can be classified a s a Testudo is one thing .....

Saying that the Romans COPIED it from the Gauls IS a big TOO much.....

Is also a manouvre that canbe common tought by every military man all over the world so there isn't much to invent and speack of inventions or copiatures , tough making it on large scale and full time hardened dicipline trained manouvers as a common and daily practice is something else....

The Gauls sacked and humiliated Rome, Roman opinion is more than a little biased against them. It's not that Gauls had elaborate legions or what not, but they were not undisciplined hordes

The biggest error here is to think of factions that spread for centuries like real players of a competitions.... there in NO one versus the other , there is NOt a match to see and tell who is better and who is stronger ...who is uhumiliated and who is not , u can't even tell who is the best general since everything chance and People shpuld think and live in those time to be able to talk about it ....sso the only thing possible is describe as is , facts and proves with NO comments on who did what , who is better , wo was stronger , who is more intelligent and stuff like that......

If people think of factions like competitors or football teams , wich is quite common to see around on TW forums They would act like sustainers of their home team and don't be instead impartials then u can take History books and throw them into the cabinet ..... But if people try too look at things good or bad that they could be with a non Faction - side eye , with a non modern judger eye , with not a western or eastern or whatever culture u come from critic eye then and only then could come true comprension of facts and history.....

You seemed to 'know well' that Firbolg were 'mythical'

I rectified myself when I discovered to have wronged on it since I knew the myth of Tuatha te Danaan and I made a misanderstanding but here is a different matter....

[eadingas]

The northerners at that period didn't use/know iron, except for more advanced people living around the Baltic (Veneds). They should either have stone spears, or wooden/flint clubs. The only metalwork was bronze and copper, very rare, all the way until ~100 BC, when these cultures were wiped out by something unknown (probably just moved further north).
(When they reappear around Vth c. CE, they STILL use only bronze weapons and jewellery. Talk about backwards...)

[Parmenio]

A very quick question from a frog who doesn't even have time to read all of this thread, let alone the entire forum's contents: What's with the split fronted mail so many units are wearing? It baffled me in the full game, and now I see it here too. I've seen loads of evidence for full skirted mail, but splits I only encounter evidence for much, much later than this. A little evidence or explanation would go down very well; this bothers me quite badly.

Because of how RTW skeletons work there has to be a big stretchy polygon between each leg on the skirt. Any detailed texture allied to the 'stretchy bit' would get visibly distorted a lot, hence the splits.

Seleucid Alpha:

[Somerled]

In Book One of the Gallic Wars J.C. writes:


There was a town of the Remi, by name Bibrax, eight miles distant from this camp. This the Belgae on their march began to attack with great vigor. [The assault] was with difficulty sustained for that day. The Gauls' mode of besieging is the same as that of the Belgae: when after having drawn a large number of men around the whole of the fortifications, stones have begun to be cast against the wall on all sides, and the wall has been stripped of its defenders, [then], forming a testudo, they advance to the gates and undermine the wall: which was easily effected on this occasion; for while so large a number were casting stones and darts, no one was able to maintain his position upon the wall. When night had put an end to the assault, Iccius, who was then in command of the town, one of the Remi, a man of the highest rank and influence among his people, and one of those who had come to Caesar as embassador [to sue] for peace, sends messengers to him, [to report] "That, unless assistance were sent to him he could not hold out any longer.

Putting aside for the moment who invented the formation, I think a good case can be made for the testudo being a known seige method used by the Celts, and something that can certainly be included in this historical mod. The testudo is certainly a logical formation to employ, and given the Celts close contact with the Romans, something that they would quickly emulate if it was not already an autochthonous formation.

[PROMETHEUS]

Putting aside for the moment who invented the formation, I think a good case can be made for the testudo being a known seige method used by the Celts, and something that can certainly be included in this historical mod. The testudo is certainly a logical formation to employ, and given the Celts close contact with the Romans, something that they would quickly emulate if it was not already an autochthonous formation.

read again my post ....

[Stormy]

I think we need this unit for northern regions rebels (and mercenaries) such as Aestii, Fenni, Scandinavians.

I totally agree with you Dead Moroz but we will need some information about these units. Example : dress, weapon. This is a great idea because it will bring more realisticness to each region on the map.

BTW: nice work guys.

[Ranika]

In any event, regardless of who adopted what, or if it developed indepedently within each group, or was adapted from a similar source by both, the Gauls should have at least a unit capable of the testudo formation. Some Gallic ironwork even shows, highly conceptualized (like most Celtic art), Gallic Bodubatae formed into the testudo, so perhaps they could use it? Or are they going to be cavalry? If not them, some infantry unit should have it. It was used when they sacked Rome, if I recall, and that was some long bygone period, but I doubt they'd have 'forgotten' the testudo. And if it was present at Rome with Brennos or not, they DID have it. A proper heavy infantry unit, perhaps, should have the formation, or maybe a lighter infantry unit that can sap (so as to represent their use of the formation, to undermine the walls). If there is a Belgae merc or trainable unit for the Gauls/Britons, it should have this formation, most definitely.

As an aside, the Hibernian Belgae are said to have used a similar formation when assaulting Navan (Emain Macha, when it had thick stone walls which were apparently removed purposely, but for an unknown reason, possibly to build multiple smaller fortifications), to try and claim it from the more peaceful Darinii. The Darinii's Ivernii and Menapii allies came at the last moment though, and annihilated the enemy by sweeping in swiftly with an all cavalry army, and completely smashing them (the foe's force was apparently all infantrymen armed with clubs and swords, they had foolishly abandonned their spears, since the Darinii had no horses, nor any true melee warriors, so they thought their swords would be swifter to kill them). However, Saint Eustice, who wrote the earliest non-oral version of the story down, describes the formation of the the enemy marching on Emain Macha as having 'their shields set at their sides, their heads, and above their heads, as to keep the darts of the Darnoagh (Darinii) from falling upon them, and that their sling stones and arrows would drop to the side, making the odious sackmen impossible to fell unless a force sallied, or aide were to arrive'. However, he could've easily conceptualized or trumped up the story, but an interesting aside either way.

Anyway, that'd be another argument for a Belgae merc, I suppose, I should go to the non-faction specific unit thread and suggest it, or build on it in the Gaul Group thread.

And did read your posts, you called the testudo ahistorical for Celtic armies, and, it's not. Your argument was largely that Celts were undisciplined armies who were not capable of using a viable testudo formation (and fought in a massed head on attacks, which is BS, considering the Gauls used numerous tactics, some that appear to be adopted from Greeks). That's the point. Gauls or a Belgae unit should have it, they used it. Since this is a game mod, theories of who started it are erroneous, the important part is who had it within the game period, and the Gauls surely did.

[Stormy]

Nice Idea Ranika!
Add it to the Merc section also.

[Ranika]

Not actually my idea, Pyscho V proposed it originally, but I'm a big proponent of it. The Belgae need a little head nod of some kind, and Belgae swordsmen who could form testudo would be a good merc, I think.

[PROMETHEUS]

And did read your posts, you called the testudo ahistorical for Celtic armies, and, it's not. Your argument was largely that Celts were undisciplined armies who were not capable of using a viable testudo formation

I said they didn't Invent it ..... not that a similar formation couldn't be used , many other cultures used this as well ....but was not a standarized operation like for the legionaries......

[Steppe Merc]

You can see which model I based it off in Stormy's pics above. I still need to add the scabbard though. Please comment to help make it better

Can you give them longer hair? I'm sick of all the practically bald units that CA made... I mean is it really that hard to give someone proper lenghth hair, like down to their shoulders?

Seleucid Alpha:

Are those the Silver sheild guys? Because I'm pretty sure they would have had silver colored armor as well... or at least I think so.

[eadingas]

This is not a colored picture, I think. Just an example.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

1.. will look

2... they use but as secondary weapon and that is why u see the Gladius in the scabbard here while instead in the others pics the scabbard is empty , I think this style should be followed by all who makes scabbards.....

OK. Fair enough.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Yes just the files that are altered... so ill change the original greek files to be in line with the mod my mail is arxidamos2003@yahoo.gr

Hellenes

OK. When we have a release version I'll send them to you. Keep watching this forum and PM me if I forget to send you the mail with the files.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

LOL !!! now lets not invente history , of this step the Celts invented gunpoweder too....Testudo was a typical Roman invention tacticism , could be performed only under very hard training and sinchronicism of troops and was adopted by later legionaries as a manouver to counter the archers shoots approaching enemies... the Celts didn't even knew what was a siege tower and not for sure so many military formations , they attaked on mass with streight charges .... Beware people I don't wonna see fake stuff into other factions , I know well History and military tactics of the Romans , Celts and Greeks since were my ancestors and is what I like to study living also in once inhabited by those cultures place... , I rely on others for the other factions , But if people start to put in nationalism prides about making nations different from what they were and place in anistorical stuff or ideas just becouse they think of it , couse they would like it was so or other reasons..... I will leave this project....

Beware, PROMETEUS!!! Germans DID use the phalanx formation and NOT all Celts atacked in horde formation. Like eadingas said, read more about them...

[PROMETHEUS]

I was speacking of the post about who invented the testudo ....not phalanx and so on....mainly Celtd din't use complex Tactics on their own and exceptions didn't made a use out of it....


BTW Whats should I beware?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I was speacking of the post about who invented the testudo ....not phalanx and so on....mainly Celtd din't use complex Tactics on their own and exceptions didn't made a use out of it....

Sorry. I posted that before I had read your previous explanation.

BTW Whats should I beware?

Of being too accusative...

[PROMETHEUS]

Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
BTW Whats should I beware?

Fair enough , but I Just can't stand anymore entries from people about fake stuff like roman clubbers and others , as I have said there is a big difference in the testudo the Romans invented and the one that all the other nations used wich wasn't a standarized formation , that is why I am against putting it into a gaul unit , otherwise all other factions should as well since placing ur shields up to cover from darts and send troops to set fire to a gate is logical ....

Of being too accusative...

I wasn't accusing anyone in person ...didn't want to sound hard , but there is a limit and a big difference from saying ....Gauls did use testudo ...and Gauls Invented testudo....One thing is sure ...they invented the hair gel....

[Stormy]

Fair enough , but I Just can't stand anymore entries from people about fake stuff like roman clubbers and others , as I have said there is a big difference in the testudo the Romans invented and the one that all the other nations used wich wasn't a standarized formation , that is why I am against putting it into a gaul unit , otherwise all other factions should as well since placing ur shields up to cover from darts and send troops to set fire to a gate is logical ....

I wasn't accusing anyone in person ...didn't want to sound hard , but there is a limit and a big difference from saying ....Gauls did use testudo ...and Gauls Invented testudo....One thing is sure ...they invented the hair gel....

I agree, I think there is a big difference between a Roman Testudo compared to any other who will use it and the same goes for the german phalanx. Placing a shield for cover and advancing while under attack from missles is logical and I will only bet many in ancient warfare use this tactic threw out the globe.

Now, As for the clubmen, I seen it in one of my books ( Warriors of Rome ) but they were not a main military unit. In fact the plate description called it primitive and used more by like a militia unit or civilian protecting their own city/town ( The club was a universal civilian weapon it seems, used in many parts of the globe, NOT just Roman like a few may think ). The plate showed Romans protecting one of their cities in the balkans while being attacked by Dacians. The clubman was shirtless and bare footed and the clubman being a civilian was helping the Roman Archers defend. So, for the clubmen to be in-game that is like adding an extra peasant or changing the weapon the peasant has already and I don't think it is worth the change. The default peasant weapon is fine. So the club is

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Fair enough , but I Just can't stand anymore entries from people about fake stuff like roman clubbers and others , as I have said there is a big difference in the testudo the Romans invented and the one that all the other nations used wich wasn't a standarized formation , that is why I am against putting it into a gaul unit , otherwise all other factions should as well since placing ur shields up to cover from darts and send troops to set fire to a gate is logical ....

Ok. Fair enough. I agree. But a different basic "testudo" for Gauls will be hard to implement.

I wasn't accusing anyone in person ...didn't want to sound hard , but there is a limit and a big difference from saying ....Gauls did use testudo ...and Gauls Invented testudo....One thing is sure ...they invented the hair gel....

LOL I agree that sometimes there is imput that shouldn't be taken into account, but remember that most of those suggestions aren't made by EB members.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Because of how RTW skeletons work there has to be a big stretchy polygon between each leg on the skirt. Any detailed texture allied to the 'stretchy bit' would get visibly distorted a lot, hence the splits.

Seleucid Alpha:

Why is the image so bluryy?

[Parmenio]

That would be my primitive graphics card Aymar. :(

It defaults to the lower mip map. However a new card is on the way. :)

[Lord Adherbal]

some photos from painted wargaming models of Carthaginian units that might be usefull to you guys:

Light African Infantry
Heavy African Infantry
Iberian Infantry
Iberian Light Infantry
Iberian Medium Infantry
Carthaginian Command Units
Carthaginian Banners

mod looks great btw :)

[PROMETHEUS]

Time to decide and may it be definitive .....

Sacred band phalanx ----cuirass or linen?

Sacred band cavalry ----cuirass or linen?

[Steppe Merc]

My vote is cuirass for infantry, linen for cavalry. But that's just me, and I'm no expert.

[The Wizard]

Why is the image so bluryy?

Maybe, Aymar, because it's an alpha...



~Wiz

[[cF]HanBaal]

some photos from painted wargaming models of Carthaginian units that might be usefull to you guys:

mod looks great btw :)

Thx for the help and the kind words my good friend Adherbal :)

BTW, when are you gonna finish that lousy mod of yours and start helping us skinning some Karthy units?! Just kiddin, I'm following your mod too and it looks greater and greater by the day


---

Time to decide and may it be definitive .....

Sacred band phalanx ----cuirass or linen?

Sacred band cavalry ----cuirass or linen?

For the phalanx, definitely cuirass. As I said before the only source we have explicitly refers iron cuirasses.

For the cav, the info is inconclusive. However I would give them cuirass too. 3 points:

-it would be a bit weird to have mail armoured cav in the 4th tier for Carthage (as probably the new Iberian Heavy Cav will have) and only linen armoured cav in the 5th tier...

-their counterparts in foot, the SBInf, are explicitly said to have worn iron cuirasses. Xantippus also refers to the large amounts of iron armour in the armoury of Carthage. Besides, Carthage was reknowned to have some of the best metalsmiths and so the ability to make 'confortable' cuirasses even for their horsemen, especially for the 'elite within the elite' among them, the famous SBCav.

-finally, this unit is Urnamma's baby and since info is inconclusive I wouldn't dare spoiling his will. In fact, I wouldn't dare any of you to do so coz he is a really BIG mutha

[DemonArchangel]

Did the Argyraspids wear purple and blue like that?