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Thread: Unit Screenshots

  1. #691
    Seii Taishōgun 征夷大将軍 Member PROMETHEUS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots



    The first is a statue from Pergamon in modern Turkey may be a Roman copy of a third-century BC bronze statue that was part of a group commemorating a Hellenistic victory over the Galatians, who were Celtic settlers in Asia Minor. Or it may be the original.


    The second is Statue of a Gaulish warrior discovered in denmark of 2nd cent BC

    distant enough and the second is enough north !!!

    Sorry, PROMETHEUS! The only naked warbands that Romans encountered were Gaesatee.

    Besides, Galatians were isolated from Celtic incluence after their migratory/raider effort in to Greece in 274 BC.
    The bravery of the Celts in battle is legendary. They often spurned body armour, going naked into battle. Celtic society was typically more equal in terms of gender roles. Women were on more or less equal footing as men, being accomplished warriors, merchants and rulers. Other Roman historians tell us more of the Celts. Diodorus notes that:

    Their aspect is terrifying...They are very tall in stature, with rippling muscles under clear white skin. Their hair is blond, but not naturally so: they bleach it, to this day, artificially, washing it in lime and combing it back from their foreheads. They look like wood-demons, their hair thick and shaggy like a horse's mane. Some of them are clean-shaven, but others - especially those of high rank, shave their cheeks but leave a moustache that covers the whole mouth and, when they eat and drink, acts like a sieve, trapping particles of food...The way they dress is astonishing: they wear brightly coloured and embroidered shirts, with trousers called bracae and cloaks fastened at the shoulder with a brooch, heavy in winter, light in summer. These cloaks are striped or checkered in design, with the separate checks close together and in various colours.



    [The Celts] wear bronze helmets with figures picked out on them, even horns, which made them look even taller than they already are...while others cover themselves with breast-armour made out of chains. But most content themselves with the weapons nature gave them: they go naked into battle...Weird, discordant horns were sounded, [they shouted in chorus with their] deep and harsh voices, they beat their swords rhythmically against their shields.



    Ordinary Celtic soldiers, often naked except for golden neck torcs, worked themselves into a fury before entering into battle and then fought wildly like beasts. After battle a victorious Celt would ride off with the heads of slain enemies dangling from the neck of his horse. Later, the heads would be nailed to the doors of their homes or embalmed with cedar oil in order to be publicly displayed. Typically, this preservation treatment of heads was reserved for distinguished, high-ranking enemies. Diodorus also describes how the Celts cut off their enemies' heads and nailed them over the doors of their huts, as Diodorus states:

    In exactly the same way as hunters do with their skulls of the animals they have slain...they preserved the heads of their most high-ranking victims in cedar oil,
    keeping them carefully in wooden boxes.

    Diodorus Siculus, History.
    Last edited by PROMETHEUS; 12-15-2004 at 19:10.

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  2. #692
    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
    The first is a statue from Pergamon in modern Turkey may be a Roman copy of a third-century BC bronze statue that was part of a group commemorating a Hellenistic victory over the Galatians, who were Celtic settlers in Asia Minor. Or it may be the original.

    The second is Statue of a Gaulish warrior discovered in denmark of 2nd cent BC

    distant enough and the second is enough north !!!
    LOL

    Most Greek statues are naked and a lot of the Roman ones are too. Does that mean that Greeks and Romans fought naked? No. It's just an artistic depiction. Classical sculpting.

    Do not make irreflected remarks without other evidence. This ones aren't evidence...

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    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
    The bravery of the Celts in battle is legendary. They often spurned body armour, going naked into battle. Celtic society was typically more equal in terms of gender roles. Women were on more or less equal footing as men, being accomplished warriors, merchants and rulers. Other Roman historians tell us more of the Celts. Diodorus notes that:

    Their aspect is terrifying...They are very tall in stature, with rippling muscles under clear white skin. Their hair is blond, but not naturally so: they bleach it, to this day, artificially, washing it in lime and combing it back from their foreheads. They look like wood-demons, their hair thick and shaggy like a horse's mane. Some of them are clean-shaven, but others - especially those of high rank, shave their cheeks but leave a moustache that covers the whole mouth and, when they eat and drink, acts like a sieve, trapping particles of food...The way they dress is astonishing: they wear brightly coloured and embroidered shirts, with trousers called bracae and cloaks fastened at the shoulder with a brooch, heavy in winter, light in summer. These cloaks are striped or checkered in design, with the separate checks close together and in various colours.

    [The Celts] wear bronze helmets with figures picked out on them, even horns, which made them look even taller than they already are...while others cover themselves with breast-armour made out of chains. But most content themselves with the weapons nature gave them: they go naked into battle...Weird, discordant horns were sounded, [they shouted in chorus with their] deep and harsh voices, they beat their swords rhythmically against their shields.


    Ordinary Celtic soldiers, often naked except for golden neck torcs, worked themselves into a fury before entering into battle and then fought wildly like beasts. After battle a victorious Celt would ride off with the heads of slain enemies dangling from the neck of his horse. Later, the heads would be nailed to the doors of their homes or embalmed with cedar oil in order to be publicly displayed. Typically, this preservation treatment of heads was reserved for distinguished, high-ranking enemies. Diodorus also describes how the Celts cut off their enemies' heads and nailed them over the doors of their huts, as Diodorus states:

    In exactly the same way as hunters do with their skulls of the animals they have slain...they preserved the heads of their most high-ranking victims in cedar oil,
    keeping them carefully in wooden boxes.

    Diodorus Siculus, History.
    From what era is that? What era is he talking about? 500BC? 100BC?

    As I've said previously, but you failed to listen, it depends on the era!!! It makes all the difference in the world.

    Roman military equipment and habits evolved, so did the Celtic and others, albeit less...

  4. #694
    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Actually, IIRC Diodorus writes about Ceasar's wars in Gaul, so it's quite relevant. However, both the statues (the second one doesn't look Roman/Greek, so it might be the real thing) and Diodorus' account point to Gaesetae, naked fanatics, not regular warriors of the warbands. We already have the Gaesetae unit, right?
    I'm still not here

  5. #695
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Gaesatae are going to be mercenaries available in Gaul, so the 'naked Gauls' are going to have a presence.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  6. #696
    Seii Taishōgun 征夷大将軍 Member PROMETHEUS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    As I've said previously, but you failed to listen, it depends on the era!!! It makes all the difference in the world.
    No I didn't failed to read,look to the following threads before this....
    and is not really a matter of time period but of cultural habits , some of (not all) to prove their valour fought naked even if they could have adopted mail or other armours.....

    Do not make irreflected remarks without other evidence. This ones aren't evidence...
    And sorry but Archeological finds are evidence! all the other things are iphothesys....
    Last edited by PROMETHEUS; 12-15-2004 at 20:39.

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  7. #697
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
    No I didn't failed to read,look to the following threads before this....
    and is not really a matter of time period but of cultural habits , some of (not all) to prove their valour fought naked even if they could have adopted mail or other armours.....

    And sorry but Archeological finds are evidence! all the other things are iphothesys....
    One must also use logic with regards to archaeology. You cannot simply dismiss what eadingas and others are saying because it does not fit with your idea.

    Otherwise, every find is open to not only interpretation, but wild speculation.
    Cogita tute


  8. #698
    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
    No I didn't failed to read, look to the following threads before this....
    and is not really a matter of time period but of cultural habits , some of (not all) to prove their valour fought naked even if they could have adopted mail or other armours.....
    Some? Not most? OK. Then we agree. For me some are: Gaesatee and Southern Warband. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
    And sorry but Archeological finds are evidence! all the other things are iphothesys....
    Really? So I can say that all Greeks and some Romans fought naked. I have Archeological finds to prove it too. Just look at all the Greeek and Roman statues spread all over the place...

  9. #699
    Member Member chemchok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    The Roman copy of the Dying Gallatian Trumpeter from Pergamon is a Hellenistic heroic nude, it does not mean that Gallatian's fought naked, end of story. It is a useful reference for the facial features of a Gallatian, but that's about it.

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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Gallatian's fought naked, end of story. It is a useful reference for the facial features of a Gallatian, but that's about it.
    completely wrong .... if it was an artistical vision then they would have made him with the heroic helm , may be a sword and a greek style shield , not spiked hair , mustaches , nakes and torque with as is known is been described right like this by many authors ....


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
    And sorry but Archeological finds are evidence! all the other things are iphothesys....
    Really? So I can say that all Greeks and some Romans fought naked. I have Archeological finds to prove it too. Just look at all the Greeek and Roman statues spread all over the place...
    Lol should I even comment this?
    Last edited by PROMETHEUS; 12-15-2004 at 21:20.

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  11. #701
    Member Member chemchok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    No, it's a Hellenistic heroic nude, not a Classical heroic nude. He's naked to show the superior physical quality of the enemy that Pergamum had recently defeated. The torc, the details of the face, and the hair are used to make him recongnizable as a Gallatian.

    Plus, the Gaul is lying upon his sword, his shield, and his trumpet (though these are partially restored, so they should not be relied upon as historical) - these items were included in the scuplture.

  12. #702
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    This is a Roman copy of a Hellenistic bronze original. Marble. 3rd Century B.C. (c. 240 - 220 B.C.) It is not an heroic nude but a a victory monument, the Dying Gaul is dramatically depicted in mute resignation as he momentarily rests upon his oval shield (Celtic), his trumpet nearby. He manages to keep his body upright by the temporary support of his hand. (The sword is speculated to be a copyist's addition.) The original is sometimes ascribed to the sculptor Epigonos.
    The cropped hair, the mustache, the shaven face (probably denoting the Dying Gaul as a chieftain) and the gold tourque or ring around the neck were distinctive characteristics of the "barbaric" Gauls.
    Last edited by PROMETHEUS; 12-15-2004 at 22:17.

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  13. #703
    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Look, guys, Prometheus especially, it doesn't really matter. Whether it's a real depiction or an allegory, the fact is that both sculptures show NAKED GALLIC WARRIOR. Not a SHIRTLESS gallic warrior with pants. So even if it's a real warrior, it's a Gaeseta, who's already listed in the unit list! And it has nothing to do with whether the northern gauls wore shirts or not!
    I'm still not here

  14. #704
    Member Member chemchok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    From the Grove Dicitonairy of Art:

    "The most original and openly sensual Hellenistic nude is perhaps the crouching Aphrodite at her Bath (c. 250 bc; Roman copy, Paris, Louvre). Male nudes were often shown in violent poses, and Pergamese sculptors particularly favoured dramatic subjects, with a strong emotional impact, such as the Dying Gaul (c. 230–220 bc; Rome, Mus. Capitolino), or the superhuman, exaggeratedly contorted Laokoon (Rome, Vatican, Mus. Pio-Clementino)."

    and

    ..."Epigonos, whom Pliny credits with a Trumpeter and a Weeping Child ‘pitifully caressing its murdered mother’ (XXXIV.xix.88), and who also signed eight bases for bronze statues on the Pergamene acropolis, two celebrating victories over the Gauls. No originals by Epigonos survive, but the famous Dying Gaul (Rome, Mus. Capitolino; see Greece, ancient, §IV, 2(iv)(b) and fig. 67) may reproduce his Trumpeter and be copied from one of the signed monuments of c. 223 bc. The warrior wears a Celtic torc and is bleeding from a chest wound, his broken trumpet and sword by his side. The realism of the statue emphasizes its pathos and, by stressing the dignity of the conquered, the statue exalts the achievement of the conquerors."

    I have never come across any literature that suggests the "nakedness" of the statues must be taken literally.

    EDIT : eadingas is right - this is a useless argument on both sides. Plus, whatever skins we use for the units will look awesome anyway, thanks to Prom, Psycho, and everyone else.
    Last edited by chemchok; 12-15-2004 at 23:00.

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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    I have never come across any literature that suggests the "nakedness" of the statues must be taken literally.
    And who said that?

    The Celt described is clearly what Eadingas said so is useless u try to say that is just a hellenistic artist vision conformistic to the usual way of making statues....


    About shirtless warriors many didn't wear shirts in combat some others did some others had even armours , but the army compositions were etereogeneal and many didn't wore shirts at all...

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  16. #706
    Member Member chemchok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Prom, I give up.

    IMO, the Capitoline Gaul does not represent a Gaeseta.

    Let's agree to disagree.


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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
    Quote Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
    Really? So I can say that all Greeks and some Romans fought naked. I have Archeological finds to prove it too. Just look at all the Greeek and Roman statues spread all over the place...
    Lol should I even comment this?
    Yes, because you're using exactly the same type of evidence to prove your point.

  18. #708
    Seii Taishōgun 征夷大将軍 Member PROMETHEUS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Ok then


    The roman art usually , at difference with the greeks made more realistic traits on their statues and less idealistic , even if used the same style , the nudity wasn't a shame to those culture as well as for many others at the time so nudity was also a part of the art system , tough many historical characters are depicted all but nude , so is the same for important foes that were depicted exactly how they were described to the authors , to show the public who was beaten .... in the case of the statue that is a copy of an original greek one , and even if Greeks appreciated to make nude rapresentations of heroes and gods , this is not the case since is not a hero and not a God , is a defeated enemy , plus this statue copy was in the Garden of a Roman historian so probably not just for eye candy ....

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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots



    Later Standard bearer....

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    I'm very much for putting shirts on them. I hate shirtless warriors... in my opinoin the only ones that shouldn't have the shirt are the Gaestae, who should be naked, and the younger warriors, aka the slingers and javileners.
    I think its really dumb to have no shirt on, especially up north. Though in Osprey, they did mention an interesting thing that having no clothes on would help reduce infection, since the clothes couldn't get pushed into the wound. But I'm really against any shirtless units, save the ones that we know a hundred percent did fight naked, or shirtless.

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  21. #711
    Member Member Stormy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    I guess some shirtless units is ok. I seen a few shirtless units in Osprey books from the falxmen to others.

  22. #712
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Quite frankly, it doesn't seem like there is enough evidence one way or the other to say IF, for certain, the warriors we are depicting (aside from a Gaeseta) would have a shirt on or not. In this case we must go with common sense. Common sense says that a warrior from a cold climate would wear a shirt.
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  23. #713
    "Aye, there's the rub" Member PSYCHO V's Avatar
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    Default Getting Shirty



    If I may, I’d like to add a bit:

    Your all right. Ever heard the story about a group of blind men describing an Elephant ? Each grabbed a piece of the beast and came to very different conclusions…well that’s what’s happening here imo. We need to look at the big picture.

    Some things to note:

    * The units in this mod should be depicted as they entered battle. Very little has to do with weather or climate.
    * That there were 60 major and 200 minor tribes who dressed differently.
    * That there are geographical and period differences in dress.
    * That ancient sources are often referring to a different subject matter for the aforementioned reasons.
    * Scholars state that it’s important to take Diodorus Siculus in context. The bit about contenting themselves with being naked was, according to sources I’ve read, in relation to the immediate previous comments about breast armour. ie. He’s suggesting that they fought without body armour and probably shirtless.
    * The ‘Pergamon Dying Gaul’ is a copy. The original was erected only a few years before the battle of Telamon, in which the Insubres and Boii fought with cloak and pants, the Gaesatae naked. A few scholars suggest that it’s depicting Gaesatae (prominent in this period), but I’m not convinced given that the central part of the monument had a warrior and his slain women together. A possible depiction of a mercenary and his tag along woman, but imo it tends to suggest more of a tribal / family feeling. Most scholars seem to think that it’s artistically archetypal. I tend to agree, either that or the later copy was changed. The sword for one appears a-historical for these people in this period and has caused great debate in ‘scholarly’ circles. The same goes for other parts of the monument.
    * Naked warriors are mentioned / referred to / depicted a lot by Greco-Roman sources due their bizaar appearance. Not because they were the most common troops. If you read through the descriptions of Diodorus, Strabo, Polybius, Ammianus Marcellinus, Livy and Caesar, you’ll see that the (full) nakedness (Gaesatae) was the exception rather than the rule.


    There are a number of tribes that fought bare chested, including the Boii, Insubres, Volcae, Branovices, Nervii, Menapii, Morini, Bellovaci, Aduatuci, Tolosates, Pictones etc etc but there just as many, if not more that fought fully clothed.
    If we are introducing Belgae, then we can probably depict the NW with a more central Gallic feel and thus give them shirts. The Belgae, as Ranika stated, tended to fight bare chested.
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  24. #714
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    We should put a shirt on the NW, the Belgae are going to be in for a trainable 'Briton' unit, and would like to see them as shared with Gauls, too. The Britons need them so they get sappers remotely early (Laoch also can sap), and maybe a second 'merc' Belgae. However, I think it bares to reasons, Gauls or Britons in control of Belgae territories would probably draw some warriors from them, in the Belgae fashion. Anyway, they would be shirtless, as the average Belgae did, definitely, fight barechested. This way, the NW has a shirt, and the Belgae would help represent the northern tribes of Gaul who fought without shirts. That seems a fair compromise to me. Besides that, the Belgae need a bit of a presence, and this would do that as well.
    Last edited by Ranika; 12-16-2004 at 02:35.
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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Yeah. A few units should be shirtless, but they should be the exception rather than the rule. Besides, I don't really trust the Roman historians, as often they were writing about things that a lot afterwards as well as being far away. But then, other than actual things we pulled from the ground, their really all we have...

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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Seleucid Silver Shields Beta:

    Don't shoot me - I'm just the texture artist.

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    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Impressive, Parmenio. I like the new shields. I hated those useless tea-pot-sized shields in the vanilla.
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  28. #718
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Very good , just a couple of observations...

    the shoulders seem too flat on the top

    the shield texture seems too dark on the bottom half part is it an effect of illumination?

    the feathers seems to extrude too much on the side and look a bit too big .... about the accuracy of the reconstruction I don't know but I guess you followed the right fonts....

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    Father of the EB Isle Member Aymar de Bois Mauri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Lovelly, Parmenio!!! Lovelly!!!

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    Default Re: Unit Screenshots

    Good stuff guys, this has become the only thread i now check regularly. Keep up the good work. Very inspiring, if only i had more time...

    *scrambles about trying to find copy of 3dsmax*


    *Ringo*
    Denuone Latine Loquebar?

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