Unit Screenshots

[eadingas]

From:
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache...+WARRIOR&hl=pl :

"[...] A role adopted because there is 100% firm
archaeological evidence to support the fighting role of Scythian and Sarmatian women within their societies"

"[...] in the 21st century, archaeologists are re-evaluating these finds. To their surprise many of the heavily weaponed bodies previously categorised as male have since turned out to be female, including the Golden warrior of Issyk. In fact, it is estimated that 30% of a Scythian fighting force would be comprised of women."

"Over the last few years, archaeologists working on over 44 Kurgans near the town of Pokrovka in Kazakhstan at the Russian border have uncovered the remains of women buried with swords and daggers, along with quivers containing arrows with bronze heads. Boney changes on the women‘s skeletons show that they spent many years in the saddle and most
had met violent death in battle. (Noble Wilford, J. 1997) These women are Sarmatian"

"To round this off I was talking with the renowned author Peter Connelly in August 2002 about the possibility of women being seen amongst Hoplite ranks and upon consideration he was in agreement that this was probably a valid hypothesis, based on illustrations and what is now known of the ”barbarian‘ contribution. ”However..‘, he mused, ”..they would have worn trousers‘. "

Any comments?

[Ranika]

I don't doubt Scythian women fought, but how many of them did? This is like the Druidae argument. The British druids fought, but in so small a number, so rarely, are they really viable as a unit in the game? How often did these Scythian/Sarmatian women fight? For what span of time did they fight? If they were in common enough numbers that they could make up several units of an army, I'd have no objection, really.

However, I stand quite firmly by comments on the Britons, who did have female warriors, but in small numbers, and integrated into other forces, not a fighting force of their own.

[eadingas]

I suppose the question here is not whether women fought, but whether their fighting was any different from that of men... did they use different tactics, wear different gear, use different weapons... I guess not... so probably just doing all Scythian warriors clean-shaven and with long hair would be enough? This way we could always say that 30% of those warriors are female, you just can't tell them apart ;)

[Dead Moroz]

(but anyway there where female warriors in the scythian culture , just look at the plates, ...even breast naked barbarians , see always the plates , only few could afford full scale armours since was expencive , the majority would not , anyway i would say that do I need to change only the meshes or the colour schemes too ?)

You should remake them all completely. If you really want to make good Scythian units, not that Hollywood cartoon stuff.

Don't pay too much attention to Osprey's plates. They are not always right (moreover you "copied" them wrong). Use primary sources when it's possible. I posted pictures in restricted area.

[PROMETHEUS]

yes but I need more info on how to , not how they where....


anyway in the mneanwhile what about this?

[Urnamma]

I love the elephants. I agree with eadingas, there is good evidence that Scythian and Sarmatian women fought. But, on the same token, do they fight so differently that they need a new unit? I think not. There's a lot more relevant units than two units of noble horse archers. (30% is an exxageration, IMO, probably no more than 10%). We should include a blurb in the description giving credit to the women, but leave some room for better warriors.

Per favore di attendere un pezzetto di fare alcune unità, PROMETHEUS. Se lei vuole, le darò alcune descrizioni buone per le unità che non ha bisogno di niente ma una pelle nuova.

Tiene a mente che parlo il francese. Il mio italiano è assolutamente orribile e la mia grammatica è peggiore.

[eadingas]

Unless that rumor of Trivium learning how to do multiple models is true. Then we could have two cavalry models for Scythians and Sarmatians - male and female, and have them mixed up in a cav archers unit, maybe...

[Urnamma]

That'd be cool as hell.

[PROMETHEUS]

Per favore di attendere un pezzetto di fare alcune unità, PROMETHEUS. Se lei vuole, le darò alcune descrizioni buone per le unità che non ha bisogno di niente ma una pelle nuova.

yes please post me the units I can reskin without the need to use max ....

[Urnamma]

Non appena PM di Aymar me sostengo, farò PM lei le descrizioni di unità e vede se lei può prendere alcuni di loro fatto.

[Dead Moroz]

From:
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache...+WARRIOR&hl=pl :

"[...] A role adopted because there is 100% firm
archaeological evidence to support the fighting role of Scythian and Sarmatian women within their societies"

"[...] in the 21st century, archaeologists are re-evaluating these finds. To their surprise many of the heavily weaponed bodies previously categorised as male have since turned out to be female, including the Golden warrior of Issyk. In fact, it is estimated that 30% of a Scythian fighting force would be comprised of women."

"Over the last few years, archaeologists working on over 44 Kurgans near the town of Pokrovka in Kazakhstan at the Russian border have uncovered the remains of women buried with swords and daggers, along with quivers containing arrows with bronze heads. Boney changes on the women‘s skeletons show that they spent many years in the saddle and most
had met violent death in battle. (Noble Wilford, J. 1997) These women are Sarmatian"

"To round this off I was talking with the renowned author Peter Connelly in August 2002 about the possibility of women being seen amongst Hoplite ranks and upon consideration he was in agreement that this was probably a valid hypothesis, based on illustrations and what is now known of the ”barbarian‘ contribution. ”However..‘, he mused, ”..they would have worn trousers‘. "

Any comments?

I have.

First, I don't believe much to American and Western European archeologists specialized on Scythians. They are rather theorists than real archeologists (because they have very limited access to the subject they study). And I was surprised when find out that the leader of excavations in Pokrovka (near modern Volgograd; or Stalingrad in WW2) was American archeologist Jeannine Davis-Kimball. She wrote book about women warriors. Maybe I'll even buy it, but it will take loooong time for me to get it. Did anybody read this book yet? I'm afraid that because she is woman and American (I mean that popular feministic spirits and political correctness) she may not be objective.

I found articles describing new theories about "Golden warrior" from Issyk mound (southern-eastern Kazakhstan). Yes, there are some things pointing out that the dead person was woman. But these new facts are not enough to sure say it was woman.

Second, you might missed one important thing. All these stories (by Herodotus and other ancient authors) are about eastern neighbors of Scythians. All these "sensational" finds was made in regions to the east of Scythia. In Scythian art you cannot find any image of female warrior. This amazonic stuff is not related to Scythians. So we MUST get rid of Hunting Maidens and Scythian Noblewomen.

These female units could be created for Sarmatian faction. But anyway their historical reliability is doubtful.

[PROMETHEUS]

Non appena PM di Aymar me sostengo, farò PM lei le descrizioni di unità e vede se lei può prendere alcuni di loro fatto.

mmmmmm sorry in english?

[Urnamma]

Told you my Italian was terrible...

Anyway, I'll get you some units to skin when Aymar tells me which ones don't need entirely new models.

[PROMETHEUS]

Non appena PM di Aymar me sostengo, farò PM lei le descrizioni di unità e vede se lei può prendere alcuni di loro fatto.

mmmmmm sorry in english?

[eadingas]

Dead Moroz: when you say 'east', don't you actually mean 'west'? I'm getting a little confused here... Since you mention Sarmatians and Volgograd...

[chemchok]

First, I don't believe much to American and Western European archeologists specialized on Scythians. They are rather theorists than real archeologists (because they have very limited access to the subject they study). And I was surprised when find out that the leader of excavations in Pokrovka (near modern Volgograd; or Stalingrad in WW2) was American archeologist Jeannine Davis-Kimball. She wrote book about women warriors. Maybe I'll even buy it, but it will take loooong time for me to get it. Did anybody read this book yet? I'm afraid that because she is woman and American (I mean that popular feministic spirits and political correctness) she may not be objective.

I haven't read the book, but there was a PBS special on Kimball's work. Here's a link to the SITE for that episode, it includes a limited interview with Kimball. Keep in mind that this series is somewhat "history lite," so to speak, and it focuses on theories rather than actual archaeology, like you suggested - I'd imagine this reflects more on the show than Kimball, but I don't know.

EDIT: Oh, and whatever the case, it does seem to be a bit of a stretch to have a Scythian or Sarmatian unit that is entirely made up of women.

[Salazar]

Isn't it so that as far as we know the Scythians/Sarmatians, didnt make much difference between Men and Women? Also there are IMHO by far enoug sources to include maybe two Female Units for them, one on Foot, one on Horseback. This was a Thing so Typical for all we know about these Peoples that it would be Kind of Stupid NOT to include it if we're for historical Accuracy, anyway i agree it shouldnt be silly Amazon Stuff but should be based on what was found in Women's Graves and on Plates we know.
Btw: There were severeal Specials about Scythians in German TV in the Last Time and they showed that on Scyhtian Artwork it's relatively likely that they can Identify some Pictured Persons as Women, also they found Women in Graves dug in with Swords AND "Cosmetic Articles" of that Time.

I'm all for one or two Female Units for Scythians/Sarmatians

[Dead Moroz]

Dead Moroz: when you say 'east', don't you actually mean 'west'? I'm getting a little confused here... Since you mention Sarmatians and Volgograd...

Don't understand you. What did you want to say?

[Dead Moroz]

Isn't it so that as far as we know the Scythians/Sarmatians, didnt make much difference between Men and Women?

Scythians surely did. They had clearly defined "phallocratic" society.

Also there are IMHO by far enoug sources to include maybe two Female Units for them, one on Foot, one on Horseback.

Evidences! Give us evidences!
I've never heard anything about foot squads of "amazons".

This was a Thing so Typical for all we know about these Peoples that it would be Kind of Stupid NOT to include it if we're for historical Accuracy,

And what are those things So-Typical-For-Scythians in your opinion?

[PROMETHEUS]

[Ranika]

Now the old elephants look really, really, really ugly. Not until seeing the two together did the original end up looking that bad to me.

[eadingas]

Don't understand you. What did you want to say?

Well, I'm looking at the map and I can't tell which Scyths do you mean: the ones in 'Scythia' around the Black Sea, or the ones around and beyond Caspian? Because Sarmatians and Pokrovka are east of the former, and west of the latter...

As for the gender differences in Scythian society, I tend to agree with Salazar, although as sources I can only quote numerous essays and articles found on the internet, regarding role of transsexuals and transgendered people in Scythia. This probably is not that much reliable source, however, one must keep in mind that 'gender studies'. or whatever you call it, are a new branch, and most of the data is also new... I can easily see how 'masculine' scientists of older days could misinterpret the data to support their view of things just as much as 'feminine' scientists of new may do... I think the matter is still unresolved... this is why I proposed to make one model 'androgynous' in features, since if the women fought, in all probability they fought in the same gear and manners as men, so except for facial hair they would be indistinguishable...
Of course the problem here is that Scythian men in iconography DID have facial hair.... quite lots of it...

[Urnamma]

The problem here is fast becoming political correctness. Gender studies tends to make up 'facts' to support predetermined conclusions... like old school Marxists or Marcusians. Scythians probably had a mostly male fighting force. Sarmatians also had a mostly male fighting force, though less so than the Scyths. They would not have had all female units. And their men would not look androgynous. Point me to an article about the transgendered in Scythia though. That sounds morbidly interesting... (didn't think they existed in the ancient world)

[PROMETHEUS]

And here is how should be , I used the dress colour s of Agrippa , I hope He won't mind since this way it will blend better with his own.....







still some small detail to fix but more or less done I hope you like this time ....

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Could we ask officially to Agrippa to join this project , since he already made the romans and are looking great so no need to make things two times....

Rest assured about Agrippa. We're taking care of that...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

About the models you are rihght , I couldn't use 3dsmax since when it loads the screen in it shows my descktop and I can't use it till I find A way to fix it .....sio I had to be limited to simple skinning , may be someonelse can mesh them up and use the skins I made , anyway here there is a simple comparison between the plates I used for inspiration and the skins I made......

OK, no problem. We'll get someone to alter tham in MAX. Even I can do that.

About the pics, not bad. Some appear a lot closer to what I know, but most will really need remodelling. Good effort though!!!

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Absolutely agreed with Aymar. Sorry, PROMETEUS, I have to say that this time you made bad work. Both 3d models and textures must be redone.

Go easy on him. He tries hard...

And we must get rid of all female warriors!

Sorry. Not all. Some Scythian women fought on horseback alongside men.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Ok question then , when I open max and import a unit , lets say i just want to substituite a new shield , I delete the old one , i place in the similar position the new one and then what I do , my problem is with the bone thing how should i do to keep the animation and make it work with the new shield?, same thing with ani weapon or difference, If you explain me this part I will be able to remake them better.....

Well, I bumped into that problem too. I don't think you can solve that one, because of the bone linking. The best solution is to remodel the existing shield. It's a frustrating and time consuming job, but it can be done. The best would be for you to PM The Samnite, Vercingetorix or PSYCHO V, because I think they have already gone through the process. I have tried to remodel one and it was a bad experience. I'll try it again later.

(but anyway there where female warriors in the scythian culture , just look at the plates, ...even breast naked barbarians , see always the plates , only few could afford full scale armours since was expencive , the majority would not , anyway i would say that do I need to change only the meshes or the colour schemes too ?)

As I've said, some of them can be included with a few modelling touches.

[ImperatorSulla]

Prometheus, nice work. Any plans of a version with white tunics?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Great work on the elehants, PROMETEUS!!!

BTW, you could try to reskin some Seleucid units that will be used for the Ptolemaic faction. Remeber to save you Seleucid textures before altering them.