Unit Screenshots

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Well, PROMETEUS! I really like the colors you've used for the Scythian Nobles, but I have to say that most of the others are badly needing a complete re-design in MAX.

Axemen and Archer Warband are nothing similar to what the Scythians used as soldiers. IIRC, Scythians never fought barechested and never used those Gaulish hairstyles. They used large beards, long flowing air and never just a moustache. Aditionaly, the women we see depicted as fighters did not use breast-cups. They used scale armour similar to the men.

BTW, Head-Hunting Maidens are getting the sack.

Another note: Are you working for any other MOD in TWC? It would be good if we kept our work a little bit restrained here before we make a public release.

[Stormy]

Agrippa made excellent Romans. I really think we should ask him but the question is would he join us ? Other mods want to add his work to theirs. It won't hurt to ask.

[Stormy]

Nice prometheus

I also agree Aymar. MAX ! MAX ! MAX !

[khelvan]

Agrippa is a part of the Trivium, with whom we already have a working relationship. Members of the Trivium have expressed strong interest in working together more closely with EB, and as soon as we have a solid sense of what that means I can give you all information to discuss, about future possibilities.

In any event, I am relatively sure that Agrippa would be happy to allow us to use his work, and I am also relatively sure that he is happy working with the Trivium and would not want to leave. It may turn out in the end that we invite him to work on skins for the EB project, but that is a part of the Trivium-EB future thing we still need to talk about and discuss among ourselves. See the "Trivium" thread in the protected forum for more details.

[PROMETHEUS]

About the models you are rihght , I couldn't use 3dsmax since when it loads the screen in it shows my descktop and I can't use it till I find A way to fix it .....sio I had to be limited to simple skinning , may be someonelse can mesh them up and use the skins I made , anyway here there is a simple comparison between the plates I used for inspiration and the skins I made......

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

About the models you are rihght , I couldn't use 3dsmax since when it loads the screen in it shows my descktop and I can't use it till I find A way to fix it .....sio I had to be limited to simple skinning , may be someonelse can mesh them up and use the skins I made , anyway here there is a simple comparison between the plates I used for inspiration and the skins I made......

OK, no problem. We'll get someone to alter tham in MAX. Even I can do that.

About the pics, not bad. Some appear a lot closer to what I know, but most will really need remodelling. Good effort though!!!

[Dead Moroz]

Well, PROMETEUS! I really like the colors you've used for the Scythian Nobles, but I have to say that most of the others are badly needing a complete re-design in MAX.

Axemen and Archer Warband are nothing similar to what the Scythians used as soldiers. IIRC, Scythians never fought barechested and never used those Gaulish hairstyles. They used large beards, long flowing air and never just a moustache. Aditionaly, the women we see depicted as fighters did not use breast-cups. They used scale armour similar to the men.

BTW, Head-Hunting Maidens are getting the sack.

Absolutely agreed with Aymar. Sorry, PROMETEUS, I have to say that this time you made bad work. Both 3d models and textures must be redone.

And we must get rid of all female warriors!

[eadingas]

You sexist pig :)
(what about Britons? Was Boadicea a one-time exception?)

[Ranika]

There were female warriors in some Celtic armies, and while they weren't really a miniscule number of exceptions, they also didn't usually ever occur in a great enough number to actually have entire units of them.

Boudicca actually wasn't a warrior, she was more or less pushed to fight out of anger. Her 'army' mostly consisted of non-professional peasants. When she was defeated, at the battle, the families (including wives, the important part there) of the men fighting turned up at the battle to watch it, not fight in it. So, while female warriors did exist, until we can have a unit with multiple, random models in it (and have a female model that would show up rarely), it would be a big anachronism to have a unit of female soldiers in the armies of the Britons.

[PROMETHEUS]

Ok question then , when I open max and import a unit , lets say i just want to substituite a new shield , I delete the old one , i place in the similar position the new one and then what I do , my problem is with the bone thing how should i do to keep the animation and make it work with the new shield?, same thing with ani weapon or difference, If you explain me this part I will be able to remake them better.....

(but anyway there where female warriors in the scythian culture , just look at the plates, ...even breast naked barbarians , see always the plates , only few could afford full scale armours since was expencive , the majority would not , anyway i would say that do I need to change only the meshes or the colour schemes too ?)

[Dead Moroz]

(but anyway there where female warriors in the scythian culture , just look at the plates, ...even breast naked barbarians , see always the plates , only few could afford full scale armours since was expencive , the majority would not , anyway i would say that do I need to change only the meshes or the colour schemes too ?)

You should remake them all completely. If you really want to make good Scythian units, not that Hollywood cartoon stuff.

Don't pay too much attention to Osprey's plates. They are not always right (moreover you "copied" them wrong). Use primary sources when it's possible. I posted pictures in restricted area.

[PROMETHEUS]

yes but I need more info on how to , not how they where....


anyway in the mneanwhile what about this?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Ok question then , when I open max and import a unit , lets say i just want to substituite a new shield , I delete the old one , i place in the similar position the new one and then what I do , my problem is with the bone thing how should i do to keep the animation and make it work with the new shield?, same thing with ani weapon or difference, If you explain me this part I will be able to remake them better.....

Well, I bumped into that problem too. I don't think you can solve that one, because of the bone linking. The best solution is to remodel the existing shield. It's a frustrating and time consuming job, but it can be done. The best would be for you to PM The Samnite, Vercingetorix or PSYCHO V, because I think they have already gone through the process. I have tried to remodel one and it was a bad experience. I'll try it again later.

(but anyway there where female warriors in the scythian culture , just look at the plates, ...even breast naked barbarians , see always the plates , only few could afford full scale armours since was expencive , the majority would not , anyway i would say that do I need to change only the meshes or the colour schemes too ?)

As I've said, some of them can be included with a few modelling touches.

[ImperatorSulla]

Prometheus, nice work. Any plans of a version with white tunics?

[Dead Moroz]

There were female warriors in some Celtic armies, and while they weren't really a miniscule number of exceptions, they also didn't usually ever occur in a great enough number to actually have entire units of them.

That's what I tried to say... or was going to say... some day.

Boudicca actually wasn't a warrior, she was more or less pushed to fight out of anger. Her 'army' mostly consisted of non-professional peasants. When she was defeated, at the battle, the families (including wives, the important part there) of the men fighting turned up at the battle to watch it, not fight in it. So, while female warriors did exist, until we can have a unit with multiple, random models in it (and have a female model that would show up rarely), it would be a big anachronism to have a unit of female soldiers in the armies of the Britons.

... and the Scythians.

[Ranika]

And the Scythians! Meant to say that, that was the whole bloody point. Thanks for adding that in there.

[eadingas]

From:
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache...+WARRIOR&hl=pl :

"[...] A role adopted because there is 100% firm
archaeological evidence to support the fighting role of Scythian and Sarmatian women within their societies"

"[...] in the 21st century, archaeologists are re-evaluating these finds. To their surprise many of the heavily weaponed bodies previously categorised as male have since turned out to be female, including the Golden warrior of Issyk. In fact, it is estimated that 30% of a Scythian fighting force would be comprised of women."

"Over the last few years, archaeologists working on over 44 Kurgans near the town of Pokrovka in Kazakhstan at the Russian border have uncovered the remains of women buried with swords and daggers, along with quivers containing arrows with bronze heads. Boney changes on the women‘s skeletons show that they spent many years in the saddle and most
had met violent death in battle. (Noble Wilford, J. 1997) These women are Sarmatian"

"To round this off I was talking with the renowned author Peter Connelly in August 2002 about the possibility of women being seen amongst Hoplite ranks and upon consideration he was in agreement that this was probably a valid hypothesis, based on illustrations and what is now known of the ”barbarian‘ contribution. ”However..‘, he mused, ”..they would have worn trousers‘. "

Any comments?

[Ranika]

I don't doubt Scythian women fought, but how many of them did? This is like the Druidae argument. The British druids fought, but in so small a number, so rarely, are they really viable as a unit in the game? How often did these Scythian/Sarmatian women fight? For what span of time did they fight? If they were in common enough numbers that they could make up several units of an army, I'd have no objection, really.

However, I stand quite firmly by comments on the Britons, who did have female warriors, but in small numbers, and integrated into other forces, not a fighting force of their own.

[eadingas]

I suppose the question here is not whether women fought, but whether their fighting was any different from that of men... did they use different tactics, wear different gear, use different weapons... I guess not... so probably just doing all Scythian warriors clean-shaven and with long hair would be enough? This way we could always say that 30% of those warriors are female, you just can't tell them apart ;)

[Dead Moroz]

From:
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache...+WARRIOR&hl=pl :

"[...] A role adopted because there is 100% firm
archaeological evidence to support the fighting role of Scythian and Sarmatian women within their societies"

"[...] in the 21st century, archaeologists are re-evaluating these finds. To their surprise many of the heavily weaponed bodies previously categorised as male have since turned out to be female, including the Golden warrior of Issyk. In fact, it is estimated that 30% of a Scythian fighting force would be comprised of women."

"Over the last few years, archaeologists working on over 44 Kurgans near the town of Pokrovka in Kazakhstan at the Russian border have uncovered the remains of women buried with swords and daggers, along with quivers containing arrows with bronze heads. Boney changes on the women‘s skeletons show that they spent many years in the saddle and most
had met violent death in battle. (Noble Wilford, J. 1997) These women are Sarmatian"

"To round this off I was talking with the renowned author Peter Connelly in August 2002 about the possibility of women being seen amongst Hoplite ranks and upon consideration he was in agreement that this was probably a valid hypothesis, based on illustrations and what is now known of the ”barbarian‘ contribution. ”However..‘, he mused, ”..they would have worn trousers‘. "

Any comments?

I have.

First, I don't believe much to American and Western European archeologists specialized on Scythians. They are rather theorists than real archeologists (because they have very limited access to the subject they study). And I was surprised when find out that the leader of excavations in Pokrovka (near modern Volgograd; or Stalingrad in WW2) was American archeologist Jeannine Davis-Kimball. She wrote book about women warriors. Maybe I'll even buy it, but it will take loooong time for me to get it. Did anybody read this book yet? I'm afraid that because she is woman and American (I mean that popular feministic spirits and political correctness) she may not be objective.

I found articles describing new theories about "Golden warrior" from Issyk mound (southern-eastern Kazakhstan). Yes, there are some things pointing out that the dead person was woman. But these new facts are not enough to sure say it was woman.

Second, you might missed one important thing. All these stories (by Herodotus and other ancient authors) are about eastern neighbors of Scythians. All these "sensational" finds was made in regions to the east of Scythia. In Scythian art you cannot find any image of female warrior. This amazonic stuff is not related to Scythians. So we MUST get rid of Hunting Maidens and Scythian Noblewomen.

These female units could be created for Sarmatian faction. But anyway their historical reliability is doubtful.

[eadingas]

Dead Moroz: when you say 'east', don't you actually mean 'west'? I'm getting a little confused here... Since you mention Sarmatians and Volgograd...

[chemchok]

First, I don't believe much to American and Western European archeologists specialized on Scythians. They are rather theorists than real archeologists (because they have very limited access to the subject they study). And I was surprised when find out that the leader of excavations in Pokrovka (near modern Volgograd; or Stalingrad in WW2) was American archeologist Jeannine Davis-Kimball. She wrote book about women warriors. Maybe I'll even buy it, but it will take loooong time for me to get it. Did anybody read this book yet? I'm afraid that because she is woman and American (I mean that popular feministic spirits and political correctness) she may not be objective.

I haven't read the book, but there was a PBS special on Kimball's work. Here's a link to the SITE for that episode, it includes a limited interview with Kimball. Keep in mind that this series is somewhat "history lite," so to speak, and it focuses on theories rather than actual archaeology, like you suggested - I'd imagine this reflects more on the show than Kimball, but I don't know.

EDIT: Oh, and whatever the case, it does seem to be a bit of a stretch to have a Scythian or Sarmatian unit that is entirely made up of women.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Absolutely agreed with Aymar. Sorry, PROMETEUS, I have to say that this time you made bad work. Both 3d models and textures must be redone.

Go easy on him. He tries hard...

And we must get rid of all female warriors!

Sorry. Not all. Some Scythian women fought on horseback alongside men.

[Dead Moroz]

Go easy on him. He tries hard...

Sorry, I did not want to offend anybody. It's just a statement of fact, nothing personal.

Sorry. Not all. Some Scythian women fought on horseback alongside men.

Would you mind I quote myself?

Second, you might missed one important thing. All these stories (by Herodotus and other ancient authors) are about eastern neighbors of Scythians. All these "sensational" finds was made in regions to the east of Scythia. In Scythian art you cannot find any image of female warrior. This amazonic stuff is not related to Scythians. So we MUST get rid of Hunting Maidens and Scythian Noblewomen.

These female units could be created for Sarmatian faction. But anyway their historical reliability is doubtful.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Would you mind I quote myself?

LOL