Unit Screenshots

[Urnamma]

Lakadaimoni are those from Lacadaimon. Lakadaimon is the domain of Sparta. You have helots, allies, and spartans. Allies are in an inferior position, think republican rome and the italian allies. Spartan hoplites would be the best armored and armed. The allies would have less in the way of arms, sometimes fighting without any armor. Helots were only allowed to be skirmishers and the like, and were notoriously unreliable. Spartan hoplites (as an elite unit) would probably have linen armor or even a bronze cuirass, because they were expected to be in the thick of the melee. The periphery work (cavalry, etc) would be left to the allies, whose armor would be inferior.

[Urnamma]

The latest text about the Spartans as an independent power has their hoplites armored with Linen and following the Iphikritean model layed down by Athens and adopted by Thebes, and the elite hoplites armored in bronze.

[PROMETHEUS]

Thraex Gladiator , the equvalent of CA veliti....

[Stormy]

Wonderful work PROMETHEUS

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

No I meant that I really want to know what is beeing making and what we are made so far that is why I posted the last time a thread about a full complete list of worked units, in work units and to work units......

Sorry. Didn't understood. I'll make a list as soon as possible and sent it to you.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The latest text about the Spartans as an independent power has their hoplites armored with Linen and following the Iphikritean model layed down by Athens and adopted by Thebes, and the elite hoplites armored in bronze.

Are you sure? I need excerpts, please...

[PROMETHEUS]

Spartan Hoplite wearing linen cuirass, pilos helmet armed with spear and hoplon

[Dead Moroz]

Spartan Hoplite wearing linen cuirass, pilos helmet armed with spear and hoplon

Hahahahaha!
Sorry, it's not evidences. Just examples of someone's fantasy.

[Dead Moroz]

WHAT ARE THOSE BUGS?

Bad made shield pattern:


Lines on breast (because of wrong copied segments of chain mail):

...better focus on making more units or the project will just make like the Zenones's never ending motus.....

Absolutely disagreed. Historical accuracy is more important for us than the number of units and the speed of their creation. That's why we making this mod. And this is the main idea of this mod.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Was this the kind of thing that you meant?



Remember one thing: these pics are out of date pics. They relate to a much earlier period because of the use of the Corinthian helm. Circa 400BC not 270BC.

Like you said earlier I could claim the same and say this is the Spartan hoplite of 270BC:



But I won't... Because he looks like an Alexandrian Hypaspist.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

...better focus on making more units or the project will just make like the Zenones's never ending motus.....

Absolutely disagreed. Historical accuracy is more important for us than the number of units and the speed of their creation. That's why we making this mod. And this is the main idea of this mod.

Dead Moroz is completelly right on this subject. This is an Historical correction MOD. We're not making units because we feel like it. We are making them to simulate History in the best possible way. We prefer to be sure and make things perfect than to rush stuff just to release the MOD earlier. Speed is the enemy of perfection.

[PROMETHEUS]

Absolutely disagreed. Historical accuracy is more important for us than the number of units and the speed of their creation. That's why we making this mod. And this is the main idea of this mod.

MMM this is a bad mentality , If you dream the perfect world and do nothing to build it you will never get out of your hom , my politic is

FIRST BUILD , THEN REFINE

AS YOU HAVE SEEN I have made severall units and refined them severall times with some units starting from the Samnite ones ....


then

I never said I was going to make fantasy units , I just try to make them as similar to what is supposed to be the unit at that period of time , men have different opinions , so historians , so what is certain for you may be completely wrong for someonelse , What I try is to please both to reach a compromise of perfection , the Spartan I did is the most accurate reconstruction od a 270 BC hoplit based on deductions , studies , plates comparisons and mergings , is not invented at all!!!
If you have a photograph of a Spartan Hoplit marching on the fields directly from this date then post me , untill then all is mere speculation , I disagree on following stereotipic patterns , the Spartan society was a conservative one , but also a warrior class so the better guess is to have them wear a "spartan" cuirass , fairly common used by Greek hoplits in this period , with their charachteristic lambda shield wich depicts their class status and also their helmet wich is most probably a heritage from the previous generations of warriors in the Spartan society....then the reconstruction is born , the mantle , _(I worked half afternoon to add it ) is becouse they wore it , even if not in combat it made part of their status symbol so should go in and helps recognize them from back wich otherwuise would be very difficoult to distinguish from other hoplits if not from the frontal face.....

then


Aymar de Bois Mauri

You can state by yourself that the pic doesn't shows what I reconstructed , Also you should not undervaluate the maniacism of Miniature painters that most of the time have better sources than historians wich this is the case

Spartans used this pylos helmet countrary of what is believed in ancient classical history corinthian type , which may be you cna see in the Troy movie but not at this time unless for some other units...


also the picture you posted shows a thracian helmet wich is out of place to me for a greek hoplit ....

I am working for recostructing units the more close to what they should like ...and this is why I joined this project , so once made the unit unless special errors if followed right principles of reconstruction , can be criticized but unless you bring a certain prove that this isn't correct then this is the better we can come to ....

also I had other plates and info on books about all the units I reconstructed as you have seen by the many plates I posted , But I got bored to scannerize every time I make a new unit so I preferred to pick up an image from internet that looks more close......

Bad made shield pattern

Ok remake a better one post it to me and I will change the shield , untill then I will keep this....

Lines on breast

I don't even notice them but if you see that there are then you will be able to correct them all when I release the package, as I said those are minimal errors , not historical accuracy ones....

[Meneldil]

Well, the pic Aymar posted (representing an Athenian hoplite I think) is IMO the more accurate.

The most recent plate of the "Ancient Greek" (Elite 7) Osprey book, that takes place in ~330BC (not that far from 270BC), clearly shows an athenian hoplite with a phrygian helmet.

Here's a part the comment from the author :
"In the 360s Athenian funerary reliefs start to show hoplites wearing muscle-cuirasses and 'Phrygian' helmets."

Of course, this is not something about Spartan hoplite, but from what I've read, the phrygian helmet was commonly used in greek armies at the end of the 4th century BC.
The book also deals with the contingent sent by the greeks in 278 BC to help the Aetolians against the Galatians.

The corinthian helmet was probably not used anymore in 270BC, though many hoplites were probably wearing a body light armor again.

[PROMETHEUS]

Wich doesn't fir the Spartan tough...

[Crazed Rabbit]

Truly excellent units! I will definately get this mod!
Great work Prometheus!

Crazed Rabbit

[PROMETHEUS]

Sicily mercenary hoplites....

[Meneldil]

Well, here are two pics I took from my Osprey Book. They are quite dodgy, but at least we can see the plates (since I haven't resized the pic, it might take a while to load) :

Late 4BC Hoplite

490 BC Hoplites

Plate 1 Characters are from the left to the right :
Athenian Hoplite, second half 4th BC
Rhodian Hoplite, end of the 4th BC
Greek mercenary, c. 330 BC

Plate 2 characters are from the left to the right :
Lakedaimonian officier 490 BC
Samian hoplite, 490 BC
Athenian hoplite of Alkaionid Clan, 490 BC
Argive hoplite, 490 BC

The main point to this post is to show what Hoplite looked like a few decades before 270BC. They are quite different from the losy hoplite we have for RTW (I don't know if those are accurate, since my knowledge about hellenes is summed up in this book, but I think they suck)

I posted the 2nd plate cause I think the pic you use for the mercenary hoplites' shield was rather related to an Athenian family. I might be wrong on this aswell, but I don't think mercenaries should have that kind of shield.

Anyway, good work on the skins :)

[PROMETHEUS]

The Trinacria is a symbol for the millenia - one which has taken root and has become a passionate Sicilian tradition. It derives from the archaic Triskele, that is that strange figure composed of a head of woman from which three human legs are folded at the knee - of Sicily, the notion of the geographic triangular shape of the island finds one of symbolic depiction of the monster with three legs, trìquetra (to three apexes or triangular). In fact, its particular geographic configuration, characterized from three capes, Pachino, Peloro and Lilibeo, are very well adapted to that figure to which the Romans imposed the same overall name for the Island. Perhaps from this configuration to the three apexes, the name Triquetra or Trinacria was given in the Hellenistic Age. That strange and characteristic representation at the same time, was of the Gorgon-like figure of three legs, and was even adopted in some coins of classic antiquity, and become the official symbol of the island. Philology supports that this last denomination is improper, while it is contended more that in Greek the Triskéles, is translatable into " three legs ".

[Urnamma]

Ok, I've said it before, I'll say it again... Greek hoplites of 500 B.C. and Greek hoplites of 270 B.C. are going to have some important differences. Once upon a time, there was this guy named Iphikrates. He made some important reforms to Greek warfare that revolutionized it and paved the way for Philip of Macedon. He got rid of the cumbersome bronze armor (relegating it to an elite corps within the hoplites that was to be in the hardest fighting) and replaced it with the much better (and lighter) linen. He got rid of the hoplon and replaced it with the an ovular shield that was known later as the theuros. He lengthened the spear considerably to anywhere between 10 and 16 feet long. He did away with the last vestiges of the Corinthian helmet and adopted lighter helmets with a broad amount of space for the face and cheek guards. Your standard Greek hoplite of 270 B.C. had an even longer spear than those used by Iphikrates (if we take the lengthening of the hellenistic sarissa to be an example, the Greeks probably would have had a weapon at least twelve feet long by 270 B.C.) and the theuros became a bit longer and narrower after it was redesigned after the gallatian attacks.

These 'Iphikratean' hoplites dominated Greek warfare until the assimilation of the Greek states by Rome. They also had armored cousins, but these seem to have been armored with mail, and so the bronze cuirass was relegated to such units as the 'spartan' hoplites in-game. Those units that were going to be in the thickest melee and needed protection over speed. The vast majority would have been armored with linen, maybe 20% with mail (the veterans) and maybe as little as 5% (the ultra-elite) with bronze armor, greaves and the older style hoplon shield.

here's a good source for part of what I'm talking about. Diadoros, Arrian, and Nepos can tell you the rest.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...hikrates1.html

As for unarmored hoplites, these were called the ekdromoi, and were not much used after the advent of the theurophoroi, the javelin armed soldier with a light spear who could beat the tar out of most peltasts.

[PROMETHEUS]

Well this seems to confirm then my Spartan reconstruction....

[Urnamma]

Prometheus, I've been arguing for your reconstruction the whole time.

[PROMETHEUS]

Arguing means?

[Urnamma]

PROM:

Arguing = discutere... trying to prove your point.

[PSYCHO V]

Great work PROMETHEUS ! Hope you aren't enlarging the textures to make them asymmetrical (we've been warned by Jerome that evil things will happen if we do )

Keep it up, I've been a bit delinquent with my work. Hope Psycho doesn't kill me

Kill?....Just happy to know your still alive matee

[Dead Moroz]

MMM this is a bad mentality , If you dream the perfect world and do nothing to build it you will never get out of your hom , my politic is

Absolutely agreed. But it doesn't mean that we should build the house which will collapse after a week. If you build something build it to last.

FIRST BUILD , THEN REFINE

It's already built - the vanilla RTW! You are already refining it.

AS YOU HAVE SEEN I have made severall units and refined them severall times with some units starting from the Samnite ones ....

Great work! Why not to keep all your other work in such "high style"!?

Ok remake a better one post it to me and I will change the shield , untill then I will keep this....

I don't even notice them but if you see that there are then you will be able to correct them all when I release the package, as I said those are minimal errors , not historical accuracy ones....

Ok, just gimme your cas'es and textures so that I can correct them.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

MMM this is a bad mentality , If you dream the perfect world and do nothing to build it you will never get out of your hom , my politic is

We're not dreaming it. We're building it. Although not many can keep your pace at creating units.

FIRST BUILD , THEN REFINE

AS YOU HAVE SEEN I have made severall units and refined them severall times with some units starting from the Samnite ones ....

True. I'm not arguing with that.

I never said I was going to make fantasy units , I just try to make them as similar to what is supposed to be the unit at that period of time , men have different opinions , so historians , so what is certain for you may be completely wrong for someonelse , What I try is to please both to reach a compromise of perfection , the Spartan I did is the most accurate reconstruction od a 270 BC hoplit based on deductions , studies , plates comparisons and mergings , is not invented at all!!!

I never said you were making fantasy units!!! In fact, I praised you several times for your accuracy. I was just asking for a plate to compare it to, because I had a very different idea taken from my readings.

You can state by yourself that the pic doesn't shows what I reconstructed , Also you should not undervaluate the maniacism of Miniature painters that most of the time have better sources than historians wich this is the case

Yes, I know that most of them are extremelly well informed. I just need to see several examples to be convinced of their total accuracy.

Spartans used this pylos helmet countrary of what is believed in ancient classical history corinthian type , which may be you cna see in the Troy movie but not at this time unless for some other units...

Well, didn't you understood what I've said? I never questioned the use of that helm. Of course the corinthian wasn't used in that age. My problem is more with the cuirass than the rest.

also the picture you posted shows a thracian helmet wich is out of place to me for a greek hoplit ....

For you. But it could be correct because it was a standard by then. The same happened with the corinthian one some 150 years before. It became a standard.

But, as I've said before, your helm isn't the issue. I was just asking about the cuirass or linen armour.

I am working for recostructing units the more close to what they should like ...and this is why I joined this project , so once made the unit unless special errors if followed right principles of reconstruction , can be criticized but unless you bring a certain prove that this isn't correct then this is the better we can come to ....

I'm in no way criticizing your awesome efforts. I aplaude them. I just want our decisions to be perfectly justified and correct, not to run into problems later on. Just that.

also I had other plates and info on books about all the units I reconstructed as you have seen by the many plates I posted , But I got bored to scannerize every time I make a new unit so I preferred to pick up an image from internet that looks more close......

That is the point of the question. We can't be working for convinience. We must work for perfectionism. And, believe me, your work can achieve that. It already did with some other units.

Ok remake a better one post it to me and I will change the shield , untill then I will keep this....

That was for Dead Moroz, not for me, right?

[PROMETHEUS]

Actually U quoted parts for Deaz Moroz more than to you anyway ...here is the Secutor Wich I used to substituite the Mirmillo wich is similar to the Samnite and so I merged in the Samnite , He should use a sort of sword but the animations are with a spear so I will leave this unchanged to be changed later on since I use those units to play online too....

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Sicily mercenary hoplites....

Beautifull!!! Well done, PROMETHEUS!!!

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Actually U quoted parts for Deaz Moroz more than to you anyway ...here is the Secutor Wich I used to substituite the Mirmillo wich is similar to the Samnite and so I merged in the Samnite , He should use a sort of sword but the animations are with a spear so I will leave this unchanged to be changed later on since I use those units to play online too....

No problem. We'll change that later. Great work!!!

[PSYCHO V]

OFFICERS


General :
Same model as Arverni but with bronze breastplate with ornate design, short conical helmet with vein / spike (Helvetii style) and wings, longsword

Lesser General :
Same model as Arverni but with mail vest and shoulder pieces, Conical Helmet with large cheek guards and Black Plume ..or this helmet


Unit Commander :
Same model as Arverni but with mail vest and shoulder pieces, Boar helmet, long sword, round shield

Standard Bearer : (In progress)
Helm, cloak, naked torso, Boar standard, long sword

Carnyx :
Duds, long sleeve shirt, carnyx, bowl helm



LIGHT INFANTRY


Tribal Militia : (In progress)

Gallic versions of Peasants yet still better skilled in fighting than other culture equivalent
Long hair, Gallic mow, long shirt, tartan trousers, oval shield, thrusting spear

Senone Slingers :

Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued, Dubious Morale under heavy casualties
(Long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, trousers, shoes, Sling, Pellet pouch slung over shoulder, Short Celtic Sword, Very small buckler usually slung over back).
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)

Aquitanian Archers: (In progress)

Average Valour, Easily Fatigued, Low Morale
(Long plated hair, Gallic moustache, torque, long sleave shirt to thigh over trousers and tied around waste with belt, shoes, bow, quiver of arrows hung off left hip, short Celtic sword, No Shield).
(Can be raised in Southern Transalpine Gaul)

Bodvoritus (‘Running Wrath’):

Extremely Impetuous, Extremely Undisciplined, Good Morale, Very Good Stamina, Good Attack
(Long flowing hair, naked tattooed torso, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, chequered trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, arm guards, dirk and medium length (Halstatt) sword).
(Can be raised from Transalpine Gaul)



MEDIUM INFANTRY


Southern Warband: (Done)

Impetuous, Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued.
(Shorter hair to nape of neck and spiked up with lime, Gallic moustache, torque, bangle around each wrist, naked chest, cloak fastened at right shoulder by broach, tartan trousers, shoes, throwing spears, long Celtic sword, rounded rectangular shield)
(Can be raised anywhere in Cisalpine Gaul and Celtiberia)


Northern Warband: (Done)

Impetuous, Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued.
(Long hair platted, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, armlets, bangle around each wrist, trousers, shoes, throwing spears, long Celtic sword, oval shield)
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)

* Thinking about giving bowl helmet. Thoughts?

Veneti Bagaudam (‘Guerrilla Fighters’):

Disciplined, Average Valour, Dubious Morale, more easily achieve ambushes, receive bonus to attack when directly from ships or at night.
(Bronze helmet with thin horns, short dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, short sleave shirt in ‘faction colours’ with chequered borders to thigh over trousers and tied around waste with belt, short boots, spear, Celtic sword, strange squarish shield with wavy sides).
(Can be raised from Veneti (Armorica) Territory)


Dubis Dusios (‘Black Demons’):

Impetuous, Very High Valour, Good Stamina, Very High Morale, Good Attack
(Bronze bowl helmets adorned with purple crest, short dark hair, shaggy black (goatskin like) shoulder-less tunic to above knee bound by thick Iberian belt, arm guards, greaves made of the same black material wound around shins and carves, excellent quality iron short two edged swords, dirk, Celtic oval shield in ‘faction colours’).
(Can be raised from Celtiberian ‘Gaul’)
*May ditch this depending on the Celtiberian work?

Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’):

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Good Stamina, High Morale,
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, long sleeve shirt with bronze cuirass, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield).
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory / Gallic Capital)



HEAVY INFANTRY


Arverni Arjos (‘Nobles’): (Done)

Good Discipline, Low Valour, Easily Fatigued, Good Morale
(Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, wrist guards, shirt of mail over long sleeve tunic gathered by belt at waist, tartan cloak gathered on right shoulder with broach, trousers, short boots, long thrusting spears, long Celtic sword, shield).

(Can be raised from Arverni Territory, post Marian reforms if possible)

Carnute Cingetos (‘Warriors):

High Valour, High Morale, Good attack, Cause Fear against other Gallic units, Large Additional Valour and Morale Bonus against non-Celtic factions.
(Iron helmet with forward facing horns, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, stripped trousers in ‘faction colours’, Royal Blue cloak fastened on breast, short ankle boots, Long Celtic Sword, Round Shield).
(Can be raised from Carnute Territory)



CAVALRY


Leuce Epos (‘Light Horse’):
Disciplined, Good Valour, Good Morale
(Iron bowl Helmet with tri swirl cheek guards, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, bangle around each wrist, long sleave tunic over trousers and tied at waist by belt, shoes, round shield, throwing spears, long Celtic Sword).
(Can raise from any Celtic Area)

Brihentin (‘Elite Cavalry’):

Disciplined, Good Valour, Easily fatigued, Good Morale, Excellent Attack
(Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet with faction-coloured plume, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, trousers in ‘faction colours’, cloak fastened on right shoulder by broach, short ankle boots, medium spear / lance, long Celtic Sword, Round shield).
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)



MERCENARIES


Gaesatae (‘Spearmen’):

Impetuous, High valour, Easily fatigued, Good Morale, Very Good Attack, Long spear throwing range.
(Like to see slightly larger model of warband but with beefed up muscles, no trousers, small flap at front, Iron Helmet with black horse hair trail, long hair, Gallic moustache, Long Hexagonal Shield, throwing spears, Long Celtic Sword, large golden torque, armlets, bracelets and anklets.
(Can be hired from Gallic Territory)

Ordocorii (‘Hammer Troops’):

Disciplined, Good Valour, Good Stamina, Average Morale
(Short Horned (Thames styled) helmet, Long dark flowing hair, Woaded face and arms, Gallic moustache, Golden torque, Heavy Wrist guards, Sleeveless shirt and vest of chain mail over trousers, belt at waist, Tartan cloak, shoes, heavy war hammer, round shield)
(Can be hired from any Gallic coastal province)
* I’d actually like to see an event linked to war with Rome that Britons offer their services.

Mori Gaesum (‘Sea of Spears’):

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Very Good Morale
(Tall spiked iron helmets, long dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, red tunic with chequered borders gathered with belt over trousers, cloak same colour as trousers, shoes, Pikes, long Celtic sword, large rectangular shield with rounded edges)
(Can be hired from Helvetii territory)

* Like to see event where Helvetii migrate

Teutones:

Disciplined, Excellent Valour, Good Stamina, Excellent Morale
(Hair dyed red and in pony tail, full beard, naked chest, short cloak, trousers, shoes, throwing spears, small square shield)
(Can be hire from border areas with Germans / German territory)