Unit Screenshots

[GeWee]

About the shield. It almost looks as if it's been folded in the middle. Is it possible to make the center line a little more 'rounded' maybe?

[PROMETHEUS]

I repost here this one couse the page changed , about your point on shield you are right I will probably fix it as I have more time.....

Ok here there are 4 version , in order



version not rusty and with highlights

version not rusty less shiny

version rusty , more dark

version of CA

I think the third version looks more realistic...

remember that the mail trama of CA is on my opinion too large since every ring seems to be as large as one finger....

[Spino]

I think the first version, non-rust w/highlights, looks the best with CA's default textures a close second. The second non-rust textures look good but are too dark. The third rusty, darkened version is way too dark. When zoomed out the darker versions will invariably lose their mail pattern and look more like gray or black leather than mail. I think the details on the third one will simply disappear when viewed from anything beyond 25 yards or so.

AFAIK, chain mail wasn't really know for accumulating much rust or dirt because throughout the course of the day constant movement and friction would prevent rust and other particles from taking hold on the links. Furthermore and perhaps more importantly, no Centurion worth his salt would let his men allow their armor to become so dilapidated, rusted and filthy. These are professional soldiers, not dodgy mercenaries or disillusioned conscripts.

BTW, superb work Prometheus.

Kudos to the EB team on their mod. I'm not going anywhere near RTR but I'm definitely drooling in anticipation of EB's release.

Edit - Oops, my mistake. I just realized these are pre-Marian legionaries (Principes) and therefore not professional soldiers. However my assertion still stands, especially in light of the fact that pre-Marian legionaries bought and maintained their own equipment. I think it's safe to say that the act of letting an expensive suit of chain mail go to pot was only for the rich or apathetic.

[Urnamma]

Prom, I like the first one, but I have one small gripe. Could you blend it a little more, try to make those quite obvious lines go away?

I LOVE the new shields. They're perfect.

[PROMETHEUS]

Ok New triaria with shield and new mail...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Nice!!

Just one detal missing: the helm is pointier (slightly more oval on top).

[khelvan]

Prometheus, those swords on the Triarii are just for show, right? Or have we solved the non-phalanx spear/sword bug?

[PROMETHEUS]

Yes show...

[blz]

very nice :)

[PSYCHO V]

new version slightly modified by Psicho V.... - Prom

Actually, that one is the original. Sorry probably confused you becasue I named the original II and the moded one I

This was the one I did no? (left) ..or did you add further highlights?

Anyway, the one on the left is the one I like. Though I wouldn't make the mail quite so long / low

my2bob

[PSYCHO V]

Beautiful Triarii !! great mail and shield

again I'd shorten the mail to about half of what it is currently below the belt.

[PROMETHEUS]

Actually, that one is the original. Sorry probably confused you becasue I named the original II and the moded one I

No i guess i don't have anymore ur version couse i used urs to increase and play around with saturations and similar stuff to add severall layers of enlighted parts onthe front sides....

Aslo about the longness of the mail shirts I have still to decide looking at the sculptures....

For the moment this makes reference...

[Catiline]

Great work Prometheus.

However, seeing as we're beinmg historically accurate, down to the Augustan period the balteus, (the belt and apron combination) was NOT worn. Earlier legionaries (probably for these purposes any equipped with mail) used two crossed belts, one for dagger and one for gladius.

lorica hamata was pretty much self cleaning if worn regularly, so there shouldn't be any rust unless you're making undead hordes...

[Dead Moroz]

I like #4. CA's chain mail together with Prometheus' work is the best!

I don't think it should be rusty. Early Roman army consisted of well-to-do citizens. They didn't spent all their life in wars. War for them was "event". I'm sure they could allow themselves to preserve their armour well between wars and to clean it before campaign. Don't forget that in all times military uniform was something like fetish for humans. Every military man wants to looks as "pretty" as it possible in his uniform.

Their chain mails were relatively new. Because every chain mail is fitted for certain figure, so the armour of father could not be suited for his son and son had to buy his own new shiny chain mail.

Now, think about gameplay, guys. Most of time you'll look at battle from the bird's eye view or something quite distant from units line. I'm sure that dark chain mail with small rings will looks very strange and obscure.

Moreover this new chain mail doesn't even looks like chain mail. Imho. It looks something like warm fluffy sweater... At least like lamellar armour (that's why I think it looks Chinese).

[FinnN]

There's some great stuff going on here and I'm really looking forward to the results. I hope what follows is OK as this is my first post here!

First of all the chainmail, I think the balance between light and dark is spot on in the first and last pictures of the 4. Chainmail would have been very lightly oiled to protect it from corrosion which would eventually occur even if the mail was constantly in use. This results in a gunmetal type colour (mid-dark metallic grey) with and surfaces exposed to rubbing being lighter. Sometimes you will see re-enactors with very bright (sometimes shiny, sometimes dull) chainmail, this is due to them using galvanised (or stainless in the case of the shiny stuff) wire to make the chainmail with, which is totally inaccurate. The thing I'm a bit uncomfortable with is the bands of pieces of chainmail in the left hand picture. As far as I can remember Roman and Celtic chainmail at least wasn't constructed in that way during the period but I could be wrong as I *think* have seen some a statue with similar patterns but I could be confused on that point. In any case it certainly wasn't the norm. I'll have a dig around and see if I can find any information. I do agree though that the CA has the links looking much too large and it looks like yet another different method of chainmail construction. Oh and chainmail can be quite easily tailored for different people as it's possible to add and remove sections. Several surviving examples have areas where this has occured. That said without the technology to mass-produce thin wire, not to mention the very labour intensive 'knitting' process, these were fantastically expensive items.

Another comment I have is on the Gallic and British troops. One of the main reasons that the Romans did so well is that they were extremely well equipped throughout their armies. Things like helmets (iron especially and also bronze) and chainmail were very high status items and would have only been owned by a small proportion of Celtic warriors. Personally I think it would be much better if they were removed from all the troops and given only to officer, standard bearer and general figures. I don't know much about the Helvetii but I think the same thing would apply to them - to my eyes that looks like a phalanx of kings. Oh and the knotwork Celtic pattern you have on one of the British units is early medieval.

Like I said I hope that doesn't come across as too negative, but I'm guessing that some suggestions are more useful than pages of me going - oo cool!

Have fun
Finn

[PROMETHEUS]

About the lines that the mail has this is an optical effect that mail suits make to distance is due to the weight and orientation of the small rings...

Also comparing a real one with the second the second looks more close , the reflections will be made via gloss files and isn't that shiny the mail on the man in fulldaylight, while the roman samples are in a shadow of a hill...
Moroz
Chineese troops used very large squares of embossed leather for armours as seeableon the replicas of clay of Chinese soldiers in the tomb of the first emperor ...


here are
Samples of reproduction mail. Those at top were made by Erik D. Schmid. The finer one on the left can be considered very typical of Roman mail, with rings just under 7 mm in outside diameter. The riveted rings are made from round-section wire but have been slightly flattened. The sample at upper right was graciously donated by Arthur Hendrick. The punched rings are about 7/16" outer diameter and 5/16" inner diameter, and are about 1/16" thick. The riveted rings are made from iron wire of about 1 mm diameter.
Erik points out that the rings are too large to be typical, and their ends overlap right-over-left while all the Roman samples he has seen overlap left-over-right. We will still consider mail of this quality to be very acceptable for our purposes!

here an original one...

[FinnN]

I've seen mail on numerous occasions both up close and at a distance (having been in a reenactment group years ago) and I haven't seen the sectional effect you have in your texture. Here's a link to the Ermine Street Guard (who are a reenactment group at the more historical end of the spectrum) website where you'll see numerous pictures of chainmail:

http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Images.htm

Allowing for the fact that some of their guys could probably lose a pound or two ;-) there's no evidence of a panelled effect at all. The picture you show shows more of a computer moire effect than anything else, the different colours coming from sections of chainmail polished to different degrees and then linked together - again no dark lines delineating horizontal sections.

I have seen pictures of mail with the sectional effect you have but not those made in the Western style.

Have fun
Finn

[PROMETHEUS]

Sorry may be you didn't saw well couse even in those pics there can be seen lines ... and those are from the site you posted....

[frisian28ad]

Is it possible to give the feathers from the helmet of the triarii another colour? Acording to Polybius they wear black feathers, it certainly would help to distinct the helmet decoration better.

greetings...

[FinnN]

To my eyes the pictures you've shown show exactly the difference I'm talking about. Here's one side-by-side with your skin:



Notice how you have widely spaced dark bands which are missing from the above pics. The lines you see in the reenactors' pics above are from individual rows of links which form a sort of corrugated texture whereas yours seem to indicate something different. I only bring this up as there is another way of making armour which does result in exactly the banding you're drawing in.

Have fun
Finn

[PROMETHEUS]

I think the image of the units u posted for comparison is too big , tough placing the same texture on a 512 512 texture type would reduce the sensation of the lines and give a better look to the units ... will try to increase the size to have a high res version to use then to rescale to a 256 256 one....

[Dux Corvanus]

If someone is interested in making an important unit from August's twelve year Cantabrian wars in the north of Hispania, this is how Cantabrian warriors should look like. OK, it's not a Rembrandt, but not bad for a 3 minute picture. BTW, all clothes should be leather and bear fur, long hair was held in a tie in TOP of head, and large round shield was wooden. The motif I've chosen is a popular one in ancient Cantabrian stone estelles. BTW, Cantabrian light horse riding javelinmen -the ones who used Cantabrian circle- should look similar, but w/o shield.

[khelvan]

I am 99% positive that Aymar and the other Iberian fanatics have this covered in spades. However, I am sure the drawing will be good material for them to draw ideas about coloring and such, though I notice in our forums there are a ton of ideas about the Iberian units such as the Cantabrii already (Aymar went nuts!).

Just out of curiosity, from what do you draw your inspiration?

[Dux Corvanus]

Just out of curiosity, from what do you draw your inspiration?

Hairstyle was described by Strabo himself. Garments and weaponry are described by Titus Livius, as quoted by Orosian.

They used javelins, short swords and double axes. One Cantabrian warrior, Larus, was well-known by his skill with double axe. A leader, Corocotta, knowing the romans offered a reward for his capture, went to ask it himself.

We also have warrior depictings based on ancient stone round estelles that are found all over the territory. They marked the proximity of a Cantabrian castrum .



Sun symbol motifs of the shields could be inspired by these monuments:

[Byzantine Prince]

Hey everyone, can you guys change the greek hoplite units? I hate how they all have the horsehair on their helmets. The real hoplites really rarely had horsehair on the helmets. Can you guys change the plain hoplites with this kind of helmet?

And also can you consider this cuirass?

[Steppe Merc]

No. That helm is totally out of date. No one would have used a Cornithean helm! And that cuirass looks more for show than battle.

[khelvan]

Well, the Greeks did use muscled bronze cuirasses, and of course the Corinthian helm, but this is at least a century outside of the time frame we're depicting, unfortunately.

I'll look into how long the muscled bronze cuirass was used, but I suspect it had all but disappeared en lieu of linen by our time frame.

[Byzantine Prince]

Dude I didn't say all of them whould have that kind of helmet. It's not really that out of date. My point was remove the horsehair, I don't care about the style being exactly the same as the picture. That was just an example. Ok here's a perfect example. Forget that one. Look:

[Big_John]

that suit is mid-4th century b.c. not drastically out-of-frame, right? maybe some early greek units could use something similar?

[Byzantine Prince]

The fact of the matter is you can't find a "real" helmet WITH Horse hair. I know it's on statues and poetry but it does not represent the true history.