Factions and units - info and descriptions

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hello everyone!

This thread is dedicated to the the Factions and units - info and descriptions sub-forum.

For those working on this group, start posting your info here, instead of the general EB MOD thread.

[The Wizard]

This is the research I did on the Parthians before the release of the game, but it's not done yet (note the missing cataphracts, for instance )


Iranian Levies /Light Infantry

Strong charge, normal attack, very weak defence, poor morale, large shield

(Spherical Median cap, long curly hair, beard and moustache, grey shirt, baggy grey trousers, tunic over shirt reaching to knees, simple shoes, belt with attached short sword, simple spear, leather-covered cane shield)

These peasant levies from the countryside of Iran were forced into military service at need; hardly trained, they were used as general duties personnel and baggage guards as well as acting as a spear phalanx in battle. They should not be relied on in battle, and should only be used for simple tasks. They can be recruited in all of Iran.



Syrian Archers/Light Infantry [Mercenaries]

Normal attack, weak defence, normal morale, shield, long range

(Cap, long curly hair, short-sleeved tunic reaching to thighs, light brown trousers tucked into short boots, quiver slung over the shoulder hanging on the back, large composite bow, small shield, hatchet hung off hip)

Mercenaries from northern Syria, these men could be found in all armies in the Orient. Their composite bow gives them an advantage in range, and their hatchets can cause more havoc amongst armored troops than one could expect from such lightly armed men! A wise commander will however remember that they cannot be relied on to hold out for long in the melee, and they are best used to pepper enemies with arrows until the heavier troops can engage.



Anatolian Highlanders/Light Infantry [Mercenaries]

Normal attack, fast, hardy, missiles good versus armor, missiles disrupt formations, very weak defence, normal morale, shield, short range

(Cap, long hair, moustache, short-sleeved jacket, striped trousers reaching to the ankles, short boots, belt with attached dagger, small target shield, goatskin pouch containing sling pellets slung over shoulder)

The tough hill men of Western Asia are hired by any powers active in the Orient. Hard to detect in flight, and difficult to dodge, sling pellets could stun, maim or even kill, and were extremely dangerous even to armored troops. These men can only be hired in the Highlands of Anatolia.



Kurdish Hillmen/Light Infantry [Mercenaries]

Weak attack, fast, hardy, missiles very good versus armor, very weak defence, normal morale, shield, long range

(Cap, long hair, moustache, woolen tunic, trousers tucked into short boots, sheepskin jerkin, target shield of stained hide, bunch of javelins, dagger)

These tough hillmen from the western reaches of Iran and Anatolia use javelin-thongs to give their throws greater range and accuracy. Their javelins are powerful weapons facing armored foes, but they should only be used skirmishing, as a melee is not something they should get stuck into. These men can only be recruited in Anatolia and the mountains of western Iran.







Sakae Tribesmen/Light Cavalry [Mercenaries]

Normal attack, fast, very weak defence, strong charge, poor morale, shield

(Long Scythian-style hair, moustache, tunic, baggy trousers, short boots, cowhide round shield which is slung over the back when using bow and equipped when using lance or sword, gorytos with bow slung over the hip, quiver slung over other hip, akinakes, simple saddle, Scythian [and later Mongolian] cut of the horse’s mane, no stirrups)

These tough Scythians from the northeastern frontiers of the Empire are levied from the vassal chieftains of the tribes there. Living a tough life, they learn to ride as soon as they can walk, and they are masterful horsemen. They can fight with lance, bow and sword in equal mastery. However, they are disloyal and cannot be relied on to fill important roles, but they can fill gaps in the line of horse archers in a Parthian army. They can only be hired from the eastern reaches of Iran [Note: if the map stretches that far].



Parthian Horse Archers/Light Cavalry

Good attack, fast, missiles good versus armor, weak defence, normal morale, long range, can perform Parthian shot, can perform Cantabrian circle

(Long parted well-groomed hair, ‘bandana’, moustache, ‘goatee’, kaftan of fine fabric with a felt or leather decorative border, heavily decorated trousers covered by thick, tubular fabric ‘chaps’ slung from the waist, simple shoes, composite bow, quiver slung over the hip, tail of horse tied in a tubular, decorated object)

These cavalrymen are recruited from the minor nobility of the Parthian people, and originally come from the steppes of Central Asia. Although they now live in Iran, they still learn to ride as soon as they can walk like their ancestors. They are expert archers and expert horsemen, being able to shoot a bow accurately from horseback, and they are the masters of the ‘Parthian shot’, being able to shoot backwards at full gallop. They are best used at weakening enemy formations so that the heavy cavalry can finish them off. They can be recruited from any Parthian-held territory.



~Wiz

[Steppe Merc]

Parthians.

Parthian Cataphracts 1st century BCE
These are the cataphracts. They used their kontos with two hands, going very slowly at an 'ambling pace'. Note that the one on the left is better equipped. The level of armor depended on the noble man's wealth, and often horses were un armoured. The most popular early armor was scale, either of hard leather, horn or iron, depending on the richness of the noble. Each man provided his own armor, so little standarisation exited at all. After the inital charge, after the weaking up by the horse archers, they would switch to their great swords. Note that the current Cataphract would likely be best for a generals unit, for their should be at least three units of cataphracts, varying in strenght, cost and skill.


Light Infantry Types
These are actaully from the Sassanaiains, but they kept their infantry essantially the same as their Parthian fore bears. However, ignore the catahphract. The spearmen was pretty much worthless, a poor peasant with a spear and sheild better suited for garrison duty or gaurding baggage trains than open battles. The archer is a Syrian Merc, and is of far better quality than of the spearman. The slinger is from Anatolia, and a highlander of very good quality despite his lightness. The Javileener is a Kurd, and is also a highlander, thus of good quality. Note: NO PAJAMAS!


Parthian Horse Archers
These are horse archers, mainly poorer nobles. They are extremely similar to their Scythian and Sarmatian brethren, and have a similar love for colors. Note the gorytos, the combo quiver/bow case. And look: NO PAJAMAS! Apparently they loved their long hair, and often went helmless in pictorial evidence, and as you can see have quite long hair. They all have the superior compound or complex bow, and have a marked suporiority to non- Eastern nomadic peoples in their bows.


The picture before were Parthians petty noble archers, while these are true nomads, mercanaries employed by their more civilized brethren. The white guy with blond hair is an Iranian nomad, and has one spear and a sword along with his bow, as opposed to the foriegn Turco-Mongol archer who has multiple javilens and a lasso with his bow. The guy with the dorky hat is a standard bearer. Again: NO PAJAMAS.

In conclusion, the Parthians should have more varied units, and NO PAJAMAS

[Steppe Merc]

Here's the Sarmatians. Sadly, the plates are all centered around 1st BCE to 2nd CE, since this is when the most information is know. However, I have included some plates, for while they may be a bit out of our time frame, I feel they are still important.


Don Frontier, 5-4th Century BCE
A bit to early, but you get the picture. Note the 'Amazon', and here use of the lasso, for which they were aparently famous for. Note the Scythian on the ground, and his colurful outfit. Apparently the Sarmatians were a bit less colorful, but this is again early than our timeperiod, and I feel they advanced colorfuly as the years progressed. All in all the Sarmatians are quite similar to the Scythians, except slightly poorer weapons. Apparently some Sarmatians were tattooed in child hood. Note the 'Amazon' is nothing near like the one showed at the com.


The Divine Sword, Pontic Steps Late 1st BCE to 1st CE
This is a relgious cermony, worshipping the Divine Sword, which apparently the Scythians did as well. They also worshipped the wind, for one gave life while the other took. Check out the armour on the heavy horsman, and his spear. The red guy is a noble.


This is a foot soldier of the Bosphoran Crimea. Not sure if they'll be included, or if they should be, but here he is.


Trajan's First Dacian War 101-102 CE
These are again out of our time zone, but they show quite well the weilding of the two handed contus and the Parthian Shot (which, of course, others used besides the Parthians).

This isn't much, I know, but they should be essentially similar to the Scythians. However, the Sarmatians should be in hear, as well as the Scythians (since I don't think their overrun quite yet).

[Steppe Merc]

Here's some feedback on the current units of Parthians. Wiz, please comment on my ideas!

Right, I know a lot about Parthia, so I'll list the Parthian units, whether there good or not, and make suggestion changes/additions.
First off, all of them should be recoulered, loose the faction colours, and loose the pajamas.

Melee

1. Peasants - Not so sure. I hate peasants, so I can't comment on them in a non biased fashion.
2. Eastern Infanrt- Idea good, exicution bad. Loose the pajamas, and the hood. Stats are good, as their infantry sucked.
3. Hillmen- Pretty good. They did recruit many hill people, and they were better trained than their standard infantry. Mabye loose the hood.

This is pretty good. The parthians infantry sucked, and most were skirmershers, so this is represented pretty well.

Skirmeshers

1. Slingers - Has pajamaitis. Has too strong of an melee attack. These guys were either mercanaries or hillmen.
2. Archers: Pretty good. But all of the archer units need to have better range, as the Parthians and the Scythians had the best archers hand down.
3. Onagers No good. The Parthians were a steppe people, and really really were bad at seiging. Get rid of this unit. Yes, this would make it hard for them to seige, but they were really bad at it.

We should also add peltlasts, which the Armenians and the Pontusians already have. Just give them that, but without the pajamas.

Mounted Archers
1. Horse Archers- Again, pajamitis. Loose the pajamas, give them no head gear and long flowing hair. Mabye their can be two units: One Iranian Nomad, and another a Lesser Parthian Noble.
2. Persian Cavalry: I guess this is like the Parthian Nobles? The need longer hair, and their outfits need to be not purple, and far more colorful.

We should add the Cataphract Archers, which Armenia already has. Also, split the Horse Archers into two or three catogories as suggested. The Lesser Parthian Noble could have better melee and better armour. Also, as another nomadic unit (which would be trainable, but cost more), can toss javilens.


Heavy Horse
1. Cataphracts: As for one type of Cataphracts, this is good. But they need to hold their kontus in two hands. However, there should be three different classes of Cataphracts: One that has the horses unarmored. These are poorer nobles, probably with scale armour for themselves. Another could be a fully armoured cataphract, but with scale armour on himself and his horse. This and the first class would make up the large number of cataphracts. The fewest number would be the current Cataphracts, as these represtent extremely rich nobles, and would be few in numbers.
2, Camel Cataphracts: Um... This might be okay if we just give the camel no armour, and mabye the rider scale armour.
3. War Elephants: These are fine, if they are Indian Elephants (which it's really easy to change it to).

Right, so there should be three classes of cataphracts, as opposed to the one right now.

Others
1. Early General: This is the javilen tossing, unarmoured early version. Um... I think that if we want to keep this guy in, give them armour on them... But I fail to see why a general would be decked out like this when he could be outfitted in a cataphract way. But whatever floats your boat.
2. Later General: These guys are Cataphracts. Mabye they could be like Siphie of the Porte, and in addition to their two handed kontus, also have compound bows? Either way, they would be the most expensive and current class of catas.

Mercanary units:
1. Bedoun Camel Archers: Not to sure.
2. Bedoun Warriors: Not to sure
3. Arab Cavalry: Not to sure.
I'm pretty sure most of the Parthian mercanaries were either light infantry, nomadic tribes from Iran, or Greeks. I don't think they would have recruited mercanary cavalry when their cavalry was far superior, but I'm not sure.

Right. Please nitpick, point out inaccuracies, point out impossibilities, and make your own suggestions.

[S.O.F]

GERMANIC ALTERATIONS
Having gone over various sources these are my rough ideas as how to bring the Germans more into historical lines.

Generally Germans of this period should be pretty poor off when it comes to arms and armour. Gauls have been directly trading with Rome, Carthage, and Greeks for sometime and all the Germans get is what they can trade off the Gauls. However what the Germans lack in arms they make up for in ferocity. So across the board German Units could use a general drop in armour values and an increase in the affects of the War-cry bonus

Infantry
Ok this needs a rework, the Phalanx of Spearmen is of hotly contested historical accuracy, Axemen and Berserkers feel akward additions which try to tie in with later Nordic types.

First Tier Unit
Germanic Warband
Germans fought with Spear yes but not in a ranked formation. More suitable Germans should throw spears before hand to hand much like Romans.

Second Tier Units
Germanic Veteran or Hardened or some sort of elite sounding name Warband
The more seasoned warriors, have better armour and either purchased or stolen swords or other sorts of hand weapons.

German Raiders
Raiding and Slave trading seem quite common among German tribes however losing the current uber status Night Raiders have would pull them more into historical lines. Still fast, still armed well, but just not as good as the current ones.

Third Tier
Chieftians Warband
These are the veteran retainers and elite warriors of oe of the many petty Germanic leaders. They can actually afford mail or have fought long enough to have acquired some.

Religious Unit
Fanatic Warriors or a Berserkers could be fine here.

Missile Units
Not so bad mainly some name changes.

First Tier
Barbarian Skirmishers renamed Germanic Youths

Second Tier
Get rid of the armour and the chosen bit on these archers, archery was not common with the Early germans so what few they would field would be quite poor.

Cavalry
Gothic Cav is very out of period and should be dropped, but the German use of light cav has been ignored

First Tier
Germanic Raider Cavalry
These would actually have been more along the lines of the swifter horsemen picking up a Youths and moving as mounted infantry running them as regular cav is really the only option available with RTW. So Javein armed skirmish cavalry for these fellows

Germanic Cav
Current Barbarian Cavalry

Second Tier
Germanic Noble Cavalry
Same as the current Barbarian Noble Cavalry

End Notes
Still lacking on the diversity front, but with further additions of tribe specific units perhaps some sort of Mountain Tribesmen from the Alps the list could be fleashed out and still remain quite accurate.

[S.O.F]

Also here is a rather nice bit of info on the Germans that is found online http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/library/ancger.asp

Again miniature wargaming is a good source of information and miniatures provide a good base for skinners.

For folks looking to work on the Dacians this article might be helpful http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/library/dacians.asp

[PSYCHO V]

SOF, do you want to add some tribal distinctions?

[sharrukin]

Good list of basic types Steppe merc and I very much agree on need for light-medium armoured lancers.

BTW(by the way?) what does IIRC mean?

Some of this I already posted in wrong place? Sorry :embarrassed:

If there is a seperate unit for Sarmatian Cataphract perhaps it should have slightly reduced armour stats to reflect horn/cuir-bouilii scale armour in unit. Sarmatians did not have same resources as Parthians. Scythians should not have Cataphracts as buildable unit. They had armoured lance cavalry but not Cataphract level.

Eastern Infantry; Elite should have spear and bow as this was common in east -something like Janisary Infantry, they won't stand up to Romans or Greeks. The Parthians had decent quality infantry(again not Graeco-Roman quality!) the accounts of Marc Anthony in the east, 36 BC? shows this. The Parthians blocked the path of the Legions on several occasions and you don't do that with morons or horse archers in closed country.

Generals; should have Cataphracts BUT the suicide bug means we should delay this? they should at least be bow armed.

Arab Cavalry;the Arabian breed existed at this time but not sure if Arab tribes used it in organized military way at this time.

We need to keep in mind the two weapon limit for units and make some choices between reality and reasonablely close game stats.

Peasants;Parthia; muster levies (hamspah) Low quality spear as you suggest.

The Parthian army was at times additionally supported by camel-borne troops. The animal could bear the weight of the warrior and his armour better and endure harshness longer than the horse; also, the archer could discharge his arrows from an elevated position. -Beduin Camel Archers They existed in Assyrian times.

Cavalry Types
1.Equipped with bows in addition to their lances and heavy armor, to allow them to engage the enemy from afar before charging. Like MTW Steppe Heavy Cavalry-Lance and Bow Factions;Scythians/Sarmatian/Parthian-Armenia?

2. Cataphracts without bows are sometimes referred to simply as lancers. Like Byzantine Pronoie Allegon Factions;as above

3. Quilted Armour or Lobster cuir-bouilli Light Lance and Bow-Like MTW Steppe Cavalry with Bow Factions;Parthian(Azat)/Scythian/Armenian/Dacian(allied Roxalani-maybe available as Merc)

4.Horse Archers Factions;Parthian/Scythian/Armenian/Seleucid-rare for Dacian/Thracian

5.Medium shock Cavalry-spear and javelin Faction;Parthian/armenian/Thracian/Dacian/Scythian/Seluecid/Ptolemaic/Carthage/Iberian/Gaulish(south)/Pontus

5a. as above but low quality due to poor horseflesh and lack of skill Faction;Roman/Greek(sorta and sometimes)/Gauls(north)

6. Heavy horse Batavian-Frisian breed Faction;Germania(big horses not skilled riders or well equipped compared to eastern cavalry-better than Roman cavalry but a kid with a sharp stick could manage that) More research needed on german cavalry they seemed to defeat gaulish cavalry through ferocity not skill-the gallic cavalry was good.

The Friesian horse is an ancient breed descended from the primitive Forest Horse (Equus caballas silvaticus). It is the only horse breed native to Holland, and has been important in the development of some native UK breeds, such as the Fell Pony and the Dales Pony. For german horse graphics this might be useful -The Exmoor has been found in representations from the Bronze Age as a chariot pony.

7.Clibinarii(super heavies) very heavily armoured lancers Factions;Parthians
Nations in the Middle East occasionally fielded cataphracts mounted on camels rather than on horses, with obvious benefits for use in arid regions but this was rare. Not sure its worth putting these in at all except that the skins and stats already there. These were rare-maybe regional availability in Palmyrae or only as merc?

The bow was of the powerful and large compound type which outranged Roman weapons and its arrows, shot with swiftness, strength, and precision, penetrated the armor of the legionaries. The cataphract was probably equipped with a mace as well. So armed and thus skilled, he was one of the ablest and most feared soldiers of antiquity.

the Parthians avoided the deficiency of the Achaemenid cavalry by carrying camel-loads of arrows for use in the field as soon as their archers ran out of their own; this enabled sustained and effective long-range engagements and reduced the number of the enemy rapidly-PARTHIANS HAVE LARGER SUPPLY OF ARROWS THAN ANY OTHER

But the Arsacid kingdom never was a truly national state; with the Scythian and Parthian elements were united some elements of Greek civilization. The successors of Arsaces I. even founded some Greek towns, and when they had conquered Babylonia and Mesopotamia they all adopted the epithet Philhellen. -What about Militia Hoplites in Greek cities, they should be rare as their availability to players could result in silly Parthian armies.

[Sethik]

IIRC= If I Recall Correctly

[sharrukin]

Thanks Sethik

How do I narrow the page on messages? Mine seem a bit too wide.

[S.O.F]

SOF, do you want to add some tribal distinctions?

The problem we have there is that at the time the game is set the Romans know very little about the Germans because they have had almost no contact. In the late Imperial period we have tons of distinct groups such as the Franks, Saxons, Burgundians, Angles, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, and Lombard but during the Republic and Early Empire we no very little.

We know of the Cimbric and Tuetones who come into conflict with Republican armies in the 2nd Century BC but there is some dispute whether these groups are even Germanic or Gallic, perhaps if we take them as Germans we can include units German in appearance but Gallic in arms.

[sharrukin]

S.O.F. I have a little on that but not much info as you said.

Semnones; An obscure tribe about which I have very little information. They appear to have been a subgroup of the Suevi, and dwelt in the bulk of what once was East Germany at roughly the time of Arminius (c. 10 CE). They remained in about that location for the remainder of their identifiable existence. They disappear about 200 CE, being replaced in that region quite soon after by the Alemanni Confederation - it is reasonable to assume that many Alemanni had been Semnones, therefore.

Boii; A Celtic tribe, one section of which settled in Cisalpine Gaul and the other gave its name to Bohemia

Ingvaeones; An early Germanic proto-tribe, or cultural group. They dwelt in Jutland, Holstein, and Frisia from some unknown time in the ancient past (perhaps 500 or 1000 BCE), until the differentiation of localized Teutonic tribes (Frisians, Saxons, Jutes, Angles) in that region circa 50 BCE

Irminones; An early Germanic proto-tribe, or cultural group. They dwelt in eastern Germany, roughly between the Elbe and Oder Rivers some unknown time in the ancient past (perhaps 500 or 1000 BCE), until the differentiation of localized Teutonic tribes (Lombards, Marcomanni, Quadi) in that region circa 10 CE

Istvaeones; An early Germanic proto-tribe, or cultural group. They dwelt around the Rhine and Weser river systems from some unknown time in the ancient past (perhaps 500 or 1000 BCE), until the differentiation of localized Teutonic tribes (Chatti, Hermanduri, Franks) in that region circa 250 CE

I also know the Bastarnae were present along the Carpathians-Moldavia region but this is divided up currently by three provinces.

[The Wizard]

Well Steppe Merc, generally your analysis is good, quite good even, but I have a few points.

• Parthians did not use elephants. I don't know which moron at CA decided to confuse Sassanian Persians with Parthians, but the Parthians didn't use the beasts.
• IIRC, the Parthian cataphracts/clibanarii didn't fire from horseback; this was something lesser nobles did. What I do know for sure is that Sassanian clibanarii did not fire from horseback, and I may be confusing the Parthians and the Sassanids.
• On the different cataphract types: it is a good idea, but I doubt the Parthians had more lightly armored cataphracts in their own formations, distinguished them from the fully armored ones. Also, if we do something like this, we need a division between the very heavy 'East Parthian clibanarii/cataphracts/lancers' and the much lighter 'West Parthian clibanarii/cataphracts/lancers' which could serve as anti-cavalry on horseback (not sure about their historical accuracy, though).

So, a couple of points and ideas, all nicely summed up. Share your thoughts on it!



~Wiz

[khelvan]

Just a quick note - Let's be nice to CA. I am sure you were just using a figure of speech, but it is hard to find fault with the company for ahistorical units. If you look at Head Hurlers and the like, there is a bit of a 'fantasy' element intended to appeal to the masses who like 'cool' things and eye candy. I am sure they did their best trying to stay historical when the mandate is to appeal to the masses (these two do not go hand in hand).

[Steppe Merc]

Aymar would certaintly disagree Kelhvan... he has no love for CA, I assure you.

And yes, I did know that the Sassianians used Elephants, but I wasn't sure if the Parthians did as well. And I know for sure that Lesser Nobles were often bow armed... see my one pic with the two blonde guys.

sharrukin, I was just talking about the Parthians... I hadn't gotten enough info to make a unit list for the Sarmatians. But they should have armoured lancers, as should the Scythians. I would agree with you about them not having Cataphracts per se, as Osprey pointed out, they were not true Cataphracts, for that destinction went really only to the Parthians and later Sassanians.

Oh, and SOF, we also have another Germanic specilist, Stephen, who is strongly in support of the pike armed unit...

[khelvan]

That may be so, but to my mind it is no reason not to be respectful. That is all I ask.

[S.O.F]

Oh, and SOF, we also have another Germanic specilist, Stephen, who is strongly in support of the pike armed unit...

Really no German expert myself just what I had handy and thought it might be useful. But German Pikemen are contentous issue, and while a single account calims such was the case there are a large number of folks who believe it incorrect.

[The Wizard]

And yes, I did know that the Sassianians used Elephants, but I wasn't sure if the Parthians did as well. And I know for sure that Lesser Nobles were often bow armed... see my one pic with the two blonde guys.

I find the name 'Lesser Nobles' a bit confusing; I personally think 'Parthian Horse Archers' would be better, and the description would include the fact that they were drawn from Parthia's lesser nobility.



~Wiz

[sharrukin]

"azat" is the word for noble in Parthian. Azat Cavalry maybe?

400 Parthian Azat's threw an army of 50,000 mounted warriors against Mark Antony in 36 BC. Not all of that 50,000 would lack any sort of armour. We know they used spear and javelin cavalry who had some armour. The "lesser noble" cavalry may not have been able to purchase a full cataphract outfit but that doesn't mean they had to stay at home.

[Steppe Merc]

Agreed. As I said before, they were often horse archers, like in my pics, or lesser Cataphracts, often with no horse armour.

[The Wizard]

"azat" is the word for noble in Parthian. Azat Cavalry maybe?

400 Parthian Azat's threw an army of 50,000 mounted warriors against Mark Antony in 36 BC. Not all of that 50,000 would lack any sort of armour. We know they used spear and javelin cavalry who had some armour. The "lesser noble" cavalry may not have been able to purchase a full cataphract outfit but that doesn't mean they had to stay at home.

I think you misunderstood me; I was referring to the name 'Lesser Nobles' for Parthian horse archers. I find it a confusing name, and personally I prefer 'Parthian horse archers' to that, including the fact that they are lesser nobles in the description of the unit.

Interesting... so the Parthians used javelin wielding cavalry which was also able to handle itself in a charge. I didn't know that.



~Wiz

[sharrukin]

Sorry about the misunderstanding Wizard! By the way the "Azat" were the higher nobles as their numbers would suggest. I don't have the name for the lesser nobles yet. With regards to the spear/javelin combo you nailed it earlier;

"Sakae Tribesmen/Light Cavalry [Mercenaries]

Normal attack, fast, very weak defence, strong charge, poor morale, shield

(Long Scythian-style hair, moustache, tunic, baggy trousers, short boots, cowhide round shield which is slung over the back when using bow and equipped when using lance or sword, gorytos with bow slung over the hip, quiver slung over other hip, akinakes, simple saddle, Scythian [and later Mongolian] cut of the horse’s mane, no stirrups)

These tough Scythians from the northeastern frontiers of the Empire are levied from the vassal chieftains of the tribes there. Living a tough life, they learn to ride as soon as they can walk, and they are masterful horsemen. They can fight with lance, bow and sword in equal mastery. However, they are disloyal and cannot be relied on to fill important roles, but they can fill gaps in the line of horse archers in a Parthian army. They can only be hired from the eastern reaches of Iran [Note: if the map stretches that far]."

The more civilized Parthian version would lack the bow and maybe not as high morale.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Also here is a rather nice bit of info on the Germans that is found online http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/library/ancger.asp

Again miniature wargaming is a good source of information and miniatures provide a good base for skinners.

For folks looking to work on the Dacians this article might be helpful http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/library/dacians.asp

Hey, S.O.F!!! You could coordinate your work with Stefan the Berserker and SaFe. They are the ones coordinating the Germanic Faction and Germanic Units. Perhaps I could include you in those two groups?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Aymar would certaintly disagree Kelhvan... he has no love for CA, I assure you.

Well, yes and no.

I love CA's guts for making the series, their imaginative work - technical and artistic - and their attention to detail in previous works, specially Shogun.

I, however, hate their recent approach and all of what is implied in it. The norrowness of mind that some people inside CA and (I believe ALL) inside Activision have, is bordering on the corporate slime approach: "the let's make some huge money with the fantasy "cool"-childish-Arcani-Iberian-Bullshite-Warrior-Pharaoh-New-Kingdom-Egypt " piece of crap fever. I could add that this has been really a disrespect for the hardcore fans of the game, who were the ones that started the ball rolling back in the times of Shogun, but I won't...

That is what's my oppinion...

[The Wizard]

Well, I find that CA and its publisher have been very arrogant towards the core of their community, the ones that they should be listening to as well as making sure the dough comes rolling in.

Compare that to companies as Blizzard, a company which has bèta online tests for its games, listens to the best players on how to improve the game with the next patch, keeps on supporting a game way past where most companies (such as Activision or EA) would stop, and includes reasonable requests and ideas into development of its games.

Sigh.



~Wiz

[khelvan]

None of us know why these decisions were made. The unfortunate reality is that in order to work with a major publisher like Activision, often a developer like CA must give up some creative control. I seriously doubt you should be directing your ire toward CA, they were probably handcuffed in what they could and could not do, and were under Activision mandates to do certain things.

Be upset about the product, not with the people who made it, unless you were a party to the decisions made and disagree with them. I doubt anyone here was a party to the decisions, so any assumption about why the decisions were made is almost certainly 100% wrong. Let's stick to the facts and be respectful to CA until we have a reason to be otherwise.

[S.O.F]

IBERIAN ALTERATIONS:and boy do they need them.
This took a bit longer to put together but I've got some pic to go with it this time. One of the major things that are required for the Iberians is that more provinces are added to Iberia, right now the 6 is a bit bare. Rebel controllered provinces in the northern mountians (Basques were still about at this time and still independent minded as ever) along with ones along the coast to represent the Greek cities particularly Saguntum perhaps Tarraco alowing both Iberian and Carthage expansion in the region with out direct war with factions.


Pics

[IMG]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0XQAjA6UexNlZe94sUZHldP3!uxI8kF*UNNzHxAjH5iG3!*mBMV9Ixv!XdGRd3Umew8rL6C93TXdvB5Xel16Tsi0W4AY!t8cTGwC OZ9ueGeAo65wSDT1RFBJpUZeTvN3TfTNf50FANes/iberianelite.JPG[/IMG]

These fellows are the elites of an Iberian force. The fellow carrying the head is an Iberian Chieftain and the others are other wealthy Iberians part of his bodyguard.



Iberian Warriors engaging Romans mix of wealthier and poorer warriors.

[IMG]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WwAeA6wdIYEX4gepg*xhxp7jWvUdlSXFHl5K1ejM7fVAC703oJtYfj0Cx2GwEf8cnf5KRvtXyhPKpIFRmnmlhpdpGO8TSQlsCyr 3zJhcV0ytalBVrDazo68yZx9KcLj2bxjOsxBorFw/Iberiancav.JPG[/IMG]

Iberian Cavalry and a Roman Equite (the in game Equites could use some work as you can see).

Revising the Current Factions Units
This is part that is a real headache since we can't easily come up with names for regiments but are basic ones would be>

Infantry:
Scutarii- The current unit does quite a good job but some Scutarii would have been armoured as well and drawn from wealther Iberians. Both units could easily be included but naming the elite version is a bit of a problem

Celt-Iberians- Celts in Iberia would really have more to do with other Iberians then Gaul to the north. Perhaps being the only Scutarii types with War Cry may work.

Iberian Infantry- Suppose they can stay representing the poorer members of Iberian society or those drawn from more remote regions and not drilled in Scutarii tactics

Missile Infantry
Caetratii- This is the general name given to Iberian Skirmishers almost entirely armed with Javelins. I might be reasonable to keep the current Skirmishers and Slingers and add these fellows in as slight better in hand to hand combat and slightly more armoured folks.

Iberian Cavalry
Well the current system here may work with some reskinning and a touch of renaming. Lesser cavalry would fight with onyl a sword and shield much like the current round shields and richer or wealther warriors fighting with spear and owning some armour.

End Notes
So the major problem with the Iberians is the lack of names for units, we have some but quickly it seems to turn into Iberian Light Cavalry or Elite Scutarii or something like that.

[S.O.F]

Well 1-3 isn't bad for a batting average. Anyone care to explain why folks can't edit there posts here?

Oh and Aymar if you want to throw me in with that group more a Carthage man myself though.

[Stormy]

Mercenary Units

Mercenary Hoplites


Example



More can be found in the links below.

Mercenary Hoplites #1


Mercenary Hoplites #2