Factions and units - info and descriptions

[sharrukin]

"Just don't think too deeply and everything will make sense."
(Herman Finkers)


These are essentially name changes and unit ideas. Some of them are Wizards and others have probably already been done by someone else.
Urnamma helped with some of the greek as well.

MACEDON

LEVY PIKEMEN; Pantodapoi
LIGHT LANCERS; Prodromoi
MACEDONIAN CAVALRY; Companion Cavalry
COMPANION CAVALRY; Heterairoi Cavalry
EARLY MACEDONIAN GENERAL; removed Neither the Agema or the Companion cavalry were so lightly armoured!
MACEDONIAN GENERAL; Basilikon Agema

EGYPT

PEASANTS; removed Hellenic Kingdoms rarely if ever used untrained peasant levies, Ptolemies in particular! ? Not sure about gameplay.
NUBIAN SPEARMEN; removed
NILE SPEARMEN; Machimoi Levy Spear
DESERT AXEMEN; Machimoi axemen Armour-3 Not elite Available early
PHAROAHS GUARD; Agema Foot Guard
BOWMEN; Machimoi Archers Use cheap shortbow for levies. Available early
PHAROAHS BOWMEN; Cleruch Bowmen; These elite archers are equipped with a scale corselet and the oriental long composite bow. Armour-6=scale corselet
NUBIAN CAVALRY; removed
DESERT CAVALRY; Arab Cavalry
NILE CAVALRY; Cleruch cavalry
CAMEL ARCHERS; Arab Camel Archers; Bow with a quiver hung at the waist, and a very long sword. Would dress in a dyed tunic (probably in simple colors like various shades of brown, tan, and white, and perhaps grey) with short sleeves or without and hemmed at the knee. A cape might also be worn. Footwear (if any) would be leather sandals. Might wear a leather or cloth strand around their heads to hold their hair in place. Often with beard and mustache. The rider would sit on a checkered cloth draped over the camel. They used a stick along with a rope coiled around the camels throat to control the beast instead of a leather bridle. Dark hair often with beard and mustache
EARLY EGYPTIAN GENERAL; removed
EGYPTIAN GENERAL; Basilikon Agema
ELEPHANTS; Added
"Syrian Archers/Light Infantry [Mercenaries] =Warlock

THE SELEUCID EMPIRE

LEVY PIKEMEN; Pantodapoi
PHALANX PIKEMEN; Phalangite
SILVER SHIELD PIKEMEN;Argyraspides-Faction Ptolemy, Seleucid, Macedon, Pontus
SILVER SHIELD LEGIONARIES;Thureophoroi; Faction-Ptolemy, Seluecid, Macedon
CATAPHRACTS; (GOOD IF WE CAN USE THE SAME UNITS WITH DIFFERENT FACTION) as Parthian Lance Cataphract (no bow) Selucid's copied these from Sarmato-Persians. Long spear, sword worn over the right shoulder. Muscled iron cuirass with metal (iron) pteruges, laminated tubular arm and leg armor (iron) covering the feet but not the hands, helmet (iron) with metal mask in the form of a bearded face (the helmet could also have hair carved on to its top). The helmet could be crested with a tuft of black hair. Leather gauntlets could be worn over hands. Horse was draped in full iron armor with a brown leather strap running along the spine. Belting, bridle and straps would be brown leather decorated with bronze or silver fittings. The sword sheath and belt could have iron or bronze fittings as designs.
COMPANION CAVALRY; Heterairoi Cavalry
SCYTHED CHARIOTS; The wood would be a greyish-brown, with bands of red ornamentation, edged in white. The horses would be armored with headpiece (iron), poitrail (chest armor) in iron, and a large saddle blanket of leather or cloth (red?). The headpiece was topped by a tufted of hair. Collar and leather straps would be red, perhaps with white decorations to match the chariot body. The single crewmen was dressed similar to a Companion cavalryman except would wear a normal bronze helmet (ie, without the face mask) and might wear pant under tunic. The cuirass might be scale. Clothing colors as for infantry phalanx.

"Syrian Archers/Light Infantry [Mercenaries] =Warlock!

PONTUS
HILLMEN; See Wizards "Anatolian Hillmen"
EASTERN INFANTRY; Spear and bow with quilted armour, stats should be increased
PHALANX PIKEMEN; Phalangite
BRONZE SHIELDS; Chalkaspides
EARLY PONTIAN GENERAL; removed
PONTIAN GENERAL; Basilikon Agema

Kurdish Hillmen/Light Infantry [Mercenaries] =Warlock

GREEK CITIES

HOPLITES; Iphicratean Hoplite?
ARMOURED HOPLITES; ? The hoplite's armor--the panoply--consisted of a shield, helmet, breastplate, greaves (plate armor worn around the lower leg), sword, spear, and tunic, and weighed about seventy pounds. All this on a soldier who himself probably weighed no more than 150 pounds.
SPARTAN HOPLITES; Spartiate Hoplite
INCENDIARY PIGS; removed!!!!!!
GREEK GENERAL; Basilikon Agema

UNITS ADDED

ARGYRASPIDES; An elite formation of hypaspistai or shieldbearers. These men can almost certainly be identified with the socalled argyraspides or silvershields from the later part of Alexander's reign. These soldiers were not recruited on a territorial basis, but selected individually on merit from the taxeis of the pezhetairoi. The hypaspistai numbered three thousand men organised in three subunits of each a thousand soldiers. Argyraspides; Silver Shields,outstanding infantry troops who were capable of performing a wide range of tasks. a flexible and mobile adaption of the original Greek hoplite a relatively short spear in the right hand with the large shield. It is these units that were seen by latin writers as Imitation Legionaires

TARANTINE LIGHT CAVALRY; Tarantine Light Cavalry; These units were equipped with javelins or thrusting spears and carried little or no body armor. They were often used as prodromoi or Scouts. Their main function however was to protect the heavy cavalry and the phalanx from enemy attacks. These light cavalry usually operated in a more open formation.

Thureophoroi;Linothorax(linen armour), spear, javelin, helmet and long and narrow shield, almost almond shaped(thureos). Long spear, sword hung over right shoulder. Also are seen carrying 2 or more javelins, although not all the time. Carried an oval thureos (shield) like those carried by Galatians, or Roman legionaries, painted plain white or another pale color with no design on the front. A piece of bronze or iron covered the central front of the shield. Wore a bronze helmet, sometimes with a red crest. Bare legs, Macedonian shoes (went up over ankle, like a short boot), and tunic extending to just above the knee, short sleeved, sometimes embroidered on the neck and sleeves. Cloaks were sometimes worn. Tunics and cloaks were commonly white, red-brown, rose, blue, and ochre. Some units could be uniformed (same colored clothing, etc). All leather straps would be brown in color.

Thorakitai;Mailshirt, thureos shield, spear, Long spear, sword hung over right shoulder. Also are seen carrying 2 or more javelins, although not all the time. Carried an oval thureos (shield) like those carried by Galatians, or Roman legionaries, painted plain white or another pale color with no design on the front. A piece of bronze or iron covered the central front of the shield. Wore a bronze helmet in Macedonian design, with or without cheek pieces, probably with a crest (red crest most likely), sometimes with a red crest. Bare legs, Macedonian shoes, and tunic extending to just above the knee, short sleeved, perhaps sometimes embroidered on the neck and sleeves as for Thureophoroi. Wore a short mail shirt (without shoulder flaps). Tunics may commonly be in white, red-brown, rose, blue, and ochre (as was common amongst Thureophoroi). Some units could be uniformed (same colored clothing, etc), again as for the thureophoroi. All leather straps would be brown in color.

Galatian Mercenary; Long swords hung from a leather or iron sheath on the waist by chain or leather belt, oval/rectangle scutum shield, and perhaps with one or two spears as well. The shield would have an iron/bronze boss plate at it front center. The shield was often red or blue, although other colors were known, such as dark green. Some might have pants and a long sleeved tunic. The pants might extend only to just below the knees, or all the way to the ankle where they would be tied with leather strings. Pants might be baggy or tight. Hair might be stiffened with lime to make it stand up. Long flowing mustaches were common, and a few might also have a short beard. Hair colors were often blonde, or red, and browns. Might also wear a cloak. All clothing was of un-dyed wool (various shades of brown), could be checkered, or striped, and some might be brightly colored: purple, scarlet, brown were common. Footwear would be brown leather shoes, if worn at all. Bronze, gold, silver torc and armlets would often be worn as well. Might wear a bronze or iron helmet, perhaps with a hair crest (black most common).


Daylami Infantry; mainly javelin- and sword-armed infantry.

Bactrian Spearmen, Spear and Bow

Parthia Heavy Infantry ;Spear, Bow, and Shield; "They wore soft caps called tiaras, multicoloured sleeved tunics with iron scale armour looking like the scales of fish, and trousers. Instead of aspides they carried gerrha with their bows cases slung below them. They carried short spears, large bows, cane arrows and daggers hanging from their belts beside the right thigh."
Asvaran Noble Cavalry;

Hyrcanian mountaineers; Shield and axe a sagaris, a pick-like axe The Persian battle-axe or Sagaris was Scythian in origin, not being a traditional Persian weapon The 'Sagaris' had a long slender handle with a heavy cutting or striking blade or point. Being light enough to use effectively one handed but still able to penetrate a metal helmet or armour.

Dihqan Lancers; Lance and bow. lesser knights, or dihqans, these dihqans received land and a stipend in exchange for mounted service. Throughout our period, eastern cavalry would have made widespread use of leather and felt horse bards - important when facing other nomad horse archers.

Scythian Heavy Foot; Scythian short composite bow in Gorytus bow case with 30-40 arrows. Spear as secondary weapon. Lamellar armour made of bronze plates on quilted or soft leather backing.

Roman cavalry; Metal helmets (cassides) were worn, light shields (parmae) carried and darts, or light lances or spears, were issued. With this equipment the cavalry was no match for good infantry and in fact did not have too fine a fighting record. It was at times not trusted, and occasionally in battle was unreliable and lacked discipline and courage.

Your opinion is very much wanted what needs to be changed, removed or any gameplay considerations.

[Urnamma]

Like I said before, the axemen and the desert cavalry make about as much sense as the chariot archers. They're a Saite unit at the latest.

Macedonian cav should be given to all the Greek states and be renamed Greek medium cavalry, to reflect the good cavalry that all the Greek states had. Love the rest of the ideas.

[Urnamma]

As far as carthaginian citizen infantry goes, it was always of low quality. Maybe they could be the miltia unit, akin to levy pikemen.

[[cF]HanBaal]

As far as carthaginian citizen infantry goes, it was always of low quality.

Why so? Links? If you read Polybius you'll find that they excelled in the 2 campaigns I mentioned earlier. In more detail,

Against the romans, in that battle of the 1st punic war, they stood their own and got nearly 0 casualties:

"those [romans] who had managed to force a passage through the elephants and collect in the rear of those beasts, encounted the Carthaginian phalanx quite fresh and in good order and were cut to pieces.

It resulted that in this battle the Carthaginians lost about eight hundred of the mercenaries, who had faced the Roman left wing, while of the Romans there were saved but about two thousand"
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...lybius/1*.html



While in the campaign against the rebellion of Mercs + moreLybians +Numidians, they fought greatly... mercs who were no n00bs at all:

"Some of these [mercenary] troops were Iberians, some Celts, some Ligurians, and some from the Balearic islands; there were a good many Greek half-breeds, mostly deserters and slaves, but the largest portion consisted of Libyans.
...
being convinced in their arrogance, owing to their success in Sicily against the Roman legions, that not only the Carthaginians, but any other people in the world would not readily face them in arms.
...
Mathos [Lybian rebel general], having so far carried out his purpose, at once sent envoys to the Libyan towns urging them to strike a blow for liberty and imploring their support and practical assistance. Nearly all the Libyans had agreed to join in the revolt against Carthage and willingly contributed troops and supplies.
...
The Carthaginians, in consequence, seeing that he [Hanno] was mismanaging matters, again appointed Hamilcar Barca to the command and dispatched him to the war on hand, giving him seventy elephants, all the additional mercenaries they had been able to collect, and the deserters from the enemy, besides their burgher forces, horse and foot, so that in all he had about ten thousand men.
...
Spendius [roman rebel gen], on learning what had happened, put his two forces in movement to meet in the plain and render mutual assistance to each other, those from the town near the bridge being not less than ten thousand in number and those from Utica over fifteen thousand. When they got in sight of each other, thinking that they had caught the Carthaginians in a trap between them, they exhorted each other with loud shouts and engaged the enemy...About six thousand Libyans and mercenaries fell and nearly two thousand were made prisoners.
...
He [Hamilcar] next traversed the rest of the country, winning over some towns and taking others by assault.
...
Spendius, after effecting a junction with the Libyans, descended into the plain and attacked the Carthaginians. The battle was a stubborn one, but ended in the victory of Hamilcar. Autaritus and Spendius escaped, but with the loss of about ten thousand killed and four thousand prisoners.
...
A short time afterwards, collecting a picked force of mercenaries and Libyans to the number of about fifty thousand and including Zarzas the Libyan and those under his command, tried again their former plan of marching in the open parallel to the enemy and keeping a watch on Hamilcar...Autaritus, Zarzas and Spendius decided to give themselves up to the enemy and discuss terms with Hamilcar [after he outmanouvered and trapped them]... The Libyans, when they learnt of their officers' arrest, thought they had been betrayed, as they were ignorant of the treaty, and rushed to arms, but Hamilcar, surrounding them (more than forty thousand) with his elephants and the rest of his forces, cut them all to pieces. This occurred near the place called the Saw; it got this name from its resemblance to the tool so called.

...[the Lybians were still more and were sieging Carthage, when Hamilcar arrived to besiege the besieged]

They appointed a committee of thirty senators and dispatched them to Hamilcar accompanied by Hanno, the general who had previously retired from command, but now resumed it, and by all their remaining citizens of military age, whom they had armed as a sort of forlorn hope...When they were each ready to attack, they drew up their armies confronting each other and at a preconcerted signal closed. The Carthaginians gained the victory, most of the Libyans falling in the battle, while the rest escaped to a certain city and soon afterwards surrendered, but Mathos himself was taken by the enemy."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...lybius/1*.html


As you see urnamma, carthaginian citizens fought exemplarly against an OVERWHELMING outnumbering enemy who, according to Polybius, numbered up to 100.000 in total.... Hamilcar had 10.000 to start, many among them exactly 'mere' carthaginian citizens. And no, I'm not talking of the 'Sacred Band' units who were highly trained in academy-religious temples (thus also highly moralised), with the best weapons-armour available and suposedly extinct by these times ... or were they?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

"Just don't think too deeply and everything will make sense."
(Herman Finkers)

These are essentially name changes and unit ideas. Some of them are Wizards and others have probably already been done by someone else.
Urnamma helped with some of the greek as well.

Your opinion is very much wanted what needs to be changed, removed or any gameplay considerations.

Great work guys!!! Finally I'm going to have the original Greek names to start changing them. I can't wait...

[S.O.F]

SUCESSOR NOTES

Sharrukin coverd this pretty well just a few more notes.

Eastern Phalanx: Seleucids and Pontus most certainly had to draw a great deal from the local populace to fill the Phalanx ranks. Certainly some regiments would be kept at the highest percentage of Hellenic Phalangites but adding in an lesser Eastern version seems senseable, the regiment would of course require a reskinning so the Phalangite is wearing pants (How barbaric ).

Ptolemaic Egypt Composition: The current Egypt is just terrible but putting it along the lines of the other Sucessors is a good idea. Some of the current units can be alter to fit since locals would have been used to fill out the ranks. Desert Axemen could be de-elited as already stated, reskinned and just made to be some local levies. Ethnic Cavalry of some sort would be drawn from the Egyptian populace as well. Nubians are not all to out of place certainly much like rules of egypt before and after Nubian/Sudanese would be brought up the nile serving as Auxillaries, perhaps realagation to a mercenary unit would be in order.

Perhaps a bit more later, generally the Sucessors are a poorly covered lot while Alexander gets countless books. The Sucessor wars are certainly more interesting then those of Alexander but that is just me.

[sharrukin]

I was thinking about what Urnnama said and I think he was right. The battle axe unit isn't historical for the time period. I might use the unit as a Parthian unit of axemen from the east where axes were more popular than they were in northern europe. The Nubians were not used as far as I have been able to find out. We can use them in an earlier or later mod.
I agree, Alexander was a Great general but a little perspective, maybe?

[Dead Moroz]

Ethnic Cavalry of some sort would be drawn from the Egyptian populace as well.

Are we gonna use this terrible name - "Ethnic Cavalry"?

[Ranika]

What about Native or just Egyptian cavalry?

[sharrukin]

NILE CAVALRY; Cleruch cavalry
NILE SPEARMEN; Machimoi Levy Spear
BOWMEN; Machimoi Archers
PHAROAHS BOWMEN; Cleruch Bowmen

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

SUCESSOR NOTES

Sharrukin coverd this pretty well just a few more notes.

Eastern Phalanx: Seleucids and Pontus most certainly had to draw a great deal from the local populace to fill the Phalanx ranks. Certainly some regiments would be kept at the highest percentage of Hellenic Phalangites but adding in an lesser Eastern version seems senseable, the regiment would of course require a reskinning so the Phalangite is wearing pants (How barbaric ).

That can be made. Or are you just joking?

Ptolemaic Egypt Composition: The current Egypt is just terrible but putting it along the lines of the other Sucessors is a good idea. Some of the current units can be alter to fit since locals would have been used to fill out the ranks. Desert Axemen could be de-elited as already stated, reskinned and just made to be some local levies. Ethnic Cavalry of some sort would be drawn from the Egyptian populace as well. Nubians are not all to out of place certainly much like rules of egypt before and after Nubian/Sudanese would be brought up the nile serving as Auxillaries, perhaps realagation to a mercenary unit would be in order.

Thanks for the added info. BTW, in the Alpha 0.2 some of the Egyptian stats have been altered, specially the naked Desert Axemen that had 20 Armour!!!

They don't have it anymore. An interim, while we don't make the more substantial changes.

BTW, you would like to focus in what factions? I want to add you to the EB Workgroup list.

[Urnamma]

Native cavalry - does anyone else think they should have spears?

[Urnamma]

Here's my revised Carthaginian Unit List, as per [cF]HanBaal's constructive criticisms:

Spanish Sword = Gladius Hispanicus

Barracks Units:
No Peasants! => Phoenician Citizens are too precious!
Town Militia => Poeni Citizen Militia: A basic militia pike unit. Has Sarissa, small round shield, and is dressed in a white tunic with linen Cuirass. Low discipline, not very high stats (think levy pikemen). They were not highly trained soldiers, just defenders of their city. This is to reflect what Adrian Goldswarthy and Theodore Mommsen say about most Punic
citizen phalanxes.

Militia Barracks Units:
Iberian infantry => Should have white tunic with purple trim and red crest on helmet. Did they have leather armor? I would think they'd be too poor.

City Barracks Units:
Libyan Spearmen => Should have Linen cuirass. Helmet is fine, shield should be fine... might need to change it to a scutum... I found conflicting reports of their shields.. White tunic.

Carthaginian Scutarii => Should have spanish sword, scutum, javelins. Leather armor with chest plate. White tunic with purple trim and red crest on helmet. Close order formation,
less attack & morale, higher discipline than Iberian Scutarii.


Army Barracks Units:
Liby-Phoenician Infantry => The standard african phalanx of the Carthaginians. Of mixed blood, they were somewhat loyal to the State, rather than being simply paid mercenaries. (Going from Poeni Infantry model): Helmets are fine. I'd go ahead and give them chain armor. It'll help balance things out, and since they used both chain and linen... I do believe that home produced mail was available after the first Punic War.

Royal Barracks Units:
Elite African Infantry => Should have Roman Helmets and mail armor. Spanish Scutum & Sword. (Sources, Adrian Goldswarthy 'The Punic Wars',Theodore Mommsen) White tunic with gold border and gold crest on helm. (Signifying that they are the general's picked infantry) (Sources: Appian, Arachnion (an italian ancient history journal)). Great troops, as good as Roman legionaries.

Along with Awesome Temple of Baal:
Sacred Band Phalanx: (working from current model of sacred band) remove Corinthian helmet. Replace it with something like the ingame Spartan hoplites wear. Replace the shields and give them small ones. Give them Sarissa for they are pikemen. Here’s your elite Carthaginian citizens, [cF]HanBaal

Cavalry:

Stables Units:
Round Shield Cavalry => should just have leather armor. No chest plate. Should have falcata, not Spanish Sword. Tunic should have purple border with red crest on helm.

2nd Level Stables Units:
Long Shield Cav => Shield should be Scutum. Rest is fine how it is, aside from maybe a tunic and crest change to purple and red respectively.

Elephants => No Change

3rd Level Stables Units:
Carthaginian Burgher Cavalry => Should have linen Cuirass, metal helmet. No shield, has lance. White crest on helm. White tunic. No greaves.

War Elephants => No Change

Royal Cavalry Stables:
Sacred Band Cavalry (with awesome temple of Astarte) => White tunic with gold border. Armor should be lacquered white, as should greaves. Horse should be barded with white lamellar. Helmet should be metal, white. Gold plume on helm. Black horses (for contrast) would look cool as hell. Stats should be increased slightly. These were an elite within an elite.

Armored Elephants => No change

Missile Units:

Practice range:
Skirmishers => Fine how they are. Need an Iberian name prefaced by Carthaginian. White tunic with purple border.

Archery Range:
Balearic Slingers => look same as current Carthaginian slingers. Same stats as Balearics in game. White tunic with green border, I think. Check your Polybius, Livy.


Catapult Range:
Balearic Light Infantry =>
Have leather armor. Carries javelins. High Missile attack (like their slinger counterparts). Carries Sword and small shield, NOT knife. Leather helmet. Same tunic as above if appropriate.

Some sort of siege engines would also be appropriate.

Building Changes:
Well, if there's anything I can assert authority on it is religion. I'm writing my thesis on ancient near eastern religions. Astarte and Tanit are distinct. Astarte is the consort of Milquart, and Tanit of Baal (-Hammon is superfluous). If you want me to go into a complicated explanation about how the Phoenicians confused the Syraic and Sumero-Akkadian/Babylonian pantheon, I will. Also, they were distinct from the Canaanites in that the Canaanites (at least the Philistines and the Sherdan sea people) believed that the consorts were switched around. Baal with Astarte and Tanit with Milquart. Here's what I think the stats should be:

Levels: 1 +10% to happiness
2 +20% to happiness
3 +30% to happiness, +1 to mounted troops
4 +40% to happiness, +2 to mounted troops
Allows construction of Sacred Band Cavalry (along with Royal Stables). This reflects its doubling as a school for the equestrian nobility. Remember, the sacred band is the property of the Goddess, having been spared from sacrifice. They are trained from birth. They're the units most loyal to the State.

Aqueducts: (a huge city like Carthage with advanced city planning would have something similar)

Execution square could be changed to Sacrificial Site of Moloch, then Large Sacrificial Site, then Huge Sacrificial site... You get the picture. Same effect. Moloch sacrifice of children was common in Carthage.

I think that all other Gallic and Iberian units recruited by Carthage should be made mercenaries to reflect their off and on status in Carthaginian armies. Some sort of recruitable Gallic swordsmen wouldn't be that bad though..

[Urnamma]

Just a Post Script: No archers, there is no evidence that they used them that I've ever seen.

[S.O.F]

That can be made. Or are you just joking?

Well the end bit was a joke, being it quite strange to the modern person that the wearing of pants be considered barbaric which was the case in the ancient world.

BTW, you would like to focus in what factions? I want to add you to the EB Workgroup list.

I suppose you can stick me on the Sucessor, Carthage, Iberians, Germanics, and Dacians mainly. Probably be able to spout stuff off on just about any other faction as well.

[[cF]HanBaal]

First of all, nice effort building up a list with so many details . I will though put some questions and suggestions (first for the units, later for the buildings), that I hope you (and others) can agree or refute:

Town Militia => Poeni Citizen Militia: A basic militia pike unit. Has Sarissa, small round shield, and is dressed in a white tunic with linen Cuirass. Low discipline, not very high stats (think levy pikemen). They were not highly trained soldiers, just defenders of their city. This is to reflect what Adrian Goldswarthy and Theodore Mommsen say about most Punic
citizen phalanxes.

Can you quote them on the sarissa? Preferably with reliable PRIMARY sources... for some reason I find modern scholars making up or assuming quite often to have sth new to write their own 'historical' books...Till today I haven't found a reliable primary source quoting who mentions sarissas or any pikes among the carthaginian phalanxes, only assumptions.

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Militia Barracks Units:
Iberian infantry => Should have white tunic with purple trim and red crest on helmet. Did they have leather armor? I would think they'd be too poor.

Also known, and probably more apropriate, as Iberian Caetrati (Caetra was the name of the small round shield). Agree with the white tunic with purple trim... but why the red in the crest? Their helmets varied a LOT and oftenly didn't even have a crest. Those who had a red one were probably captured from a dead roman . For protection, they very usually had a circular bronze/metal plate for the chest (where the draws in it varied a lot), and when affordable bronze/metal greaves and a bronze/metal belt... here CA depicted them quite well with exception for the obvious need of a falcata instead of the gladius and the need of a throwing javelin. Here's a nice pic:


Also nice models here:
http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/...=HaT&code=8058

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Carthaginian Scutarii => Should have spanish sword, scutum, javelins. Leather armor with chest plate. White tunic with purple trim and red crest on helmet. Close order formation,
less attack & morale, higher discipline than Iberian Scutarii.

Where's scutum I hope you don't mean the rectangular roman one but a oval one like the celts' common shields. Same doubts with the crest. Imo, MAJOR POINTS: Overall less charge and speed than the Caetrati but more defense and discipline. Very important is changing their primary weapon to a spear, that they combined with the soliferra (all metal javelin) to pin the enemy's main battle line. The feared falcatas (most of them used these but some used more straight swords like the gladius) were used for close (disordered) combat afterwards or on ambushes. Finally, why distinguish them from the Iberian Scutari? They were one and the same, drawed exactly from the same locations. Here'a nice pic:


Excelent depiction of an Hannibal's Iberian Scutari Infantryman by Jeff Burn

Also present in the models' link I showed above for the Caetrati.

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Army Barracks Units:
Liby-Phoenician Infantry => The standard african phalanx of the Carthaginians. Of mixed blood, they were somewhat loyal to the State, rather than being simply paid mercenaries. (Going from Poeni Infantry model): Helmets are fine. I'd go ahead and give them chain armor. It'll help balance things out, and since they used both chain and linen... I do believe that home produced mail was available after the first Punic War.

I completely agree with this one. They used a mix of chain (for the abdomen zone) and linen (for the upper body) indeed as the pics below for the Elite guys will show.

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Royal Barracks Units:
Elite African Infantry => Should have Roman Helmets and mail armor. Spanish Scutum & Sword. (Sources, Adrian Goldswarthy 'The Punic Wars',Theodore Mommsen) White tunic with gold border and gold crest on helm. (Signifying that they are the general's picked infantry) (Sources: Appian, Arachnion (an italian ancient history journal)). Great troops, as good as Roman legionaries.

Well, I have presented before my LARGE doubts of their changing of primary weapon to the sword since Polybius, the only existing main source of those days never mentions it when describing the armies at Cannae, only refering to the armor as being captured from the romans. Honestly I don't see how he would 'forget' that mention while he was talking about that exact subject. Don't misundertand me though since those african troops always carried with them a short sword from the start that became their primary weapon for the ambushes and for close/disordered combat.... But since you insist I can go on with you in this one, on the condition you remove the roman helmets! That was a blasphemy! Oh, and I would daresay "better than Roman legionaries"

Here's nice pics for our models:

"The man to the left is wearing mail armor of the Roman type, most probably taken off a dead Roman foe. Roman armor was excellent (copied from the Celts) and required some skill to make. When Hannibal took his army and war into Italy he massacred plenty of Romans, excellent armor notwithstanding and replaced all his worn and broken armor with the spoils (ironically, though only one dead Roman was needed for a change of armor, two dead Romans were need for new greaves as each Roman only wore one greave, on the lead leg). The Carthaginians however kept the rest of their gear. The man on the top right wears linen armor."


"Three of our Carthaginians carrys spears, only when his spear was broken or when he was drawn into close combat did he draw his sword (above left)."

from: http://www.hat.com/AnciCAf.html

As you said, one can see for the carthaginian original soldier that they (nr2) wore a mix of linen armour and chain armour (for the abdomen/balls zone), while others (nr4) wore what seems to be a mix of bronze (for the whole body) and linen but I'd go for the nr2 as our basic model.

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Along with Awesome Temple of Baal:
Sacred Band Phalanx: (working from current model of sacred band) remove Corinthian helmet. Replace it with something like the ingame Spartan hoplites wear. Replace the shields and give them small ones. Give them Sarissa for they are pikemen. Here’s your elite Carthaginian citizens, [cF]HanBaal

There's no description details, afaik, on what they really looked like so where did you based your changes on? To be honest I find them pretty cool with those helmets and large shields .


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Cavalry:

Stables Units:
Round Shield Cavalry => should just have leather armor. No chest plate. Should have falcata, not Spanish Sword. Tunic should have purple border with red crest on helm.

Same doubts with the crest and the lack of chest plate. Ok with the rest.

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2nd Level Stables Units:
Long Shield Cav => Shield should be Scutum. Rest is fine how it is, aside from maybe a tunic and crest change to purple and red respectively.

Ok, aside from the red in crest.

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3rd Level Stables Units:
Carthaginian Burgher Cavalry => Should have linen Cuirass, metal helmet. No shield, has lance. White crest on helm. White tunic. No greaves.

Hmm you described a light cav comparable perhaps to the Long Shield one. I think this should be available in the 2nd Level with similar stats but perhaps more morale due to loyalty.

And for the 3rd level comes my MAIN suggestion in units. Iberian Heavy Cav. It's an obvious blunder by CA since Long shield cav is ultimately a light cav. The suposedly 'Sacred Band Cavalry' units CA brags about that subsisted with Hannibal in his iberian/gaul/italian campaign for 17 years ... were Iberian. There are no records of 'Sacred Band Cavalry' crossing the Alps (aparts probably from the officer corps). All ancient descriptions mention of Iberian Heavy Cavalry and Numidian light cav doing so, to the total number of 6000 (which were what varies but it is common to say 4000 were Numidian). It were those 2000 Heavy Iberian Cav that at Cannae (virtually with no losses till there) deployed as the first line of Hannibal's left flank. The other Gallic medium/heavy cav deployed behind them. Considering the almost immediate routing/crush effect they performed on the roman flank, and later in the roman rear, one has no doubts of their high efficiency. I even dare to add that these cav units were Hannibal's favourite force. Till the day Hasdrubal (his brother in law) died and Hannibal took command in Iberia as general.... Hannibal was the cav commander and with extraordinary reputation.


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Royal Cavalry Stables:
Sacred Band Cavalry (with awesome temple of Astarte) => White tunic with gold border. Armor should be lacquered white, as should greaves. Horse should be barded with white lamellar. Helmet should be metal, white. Gold plume on helm. Black horses (for contrast) would look cool as hell. Stats should be increased slightly. These were an elite within an elite.

Nice description. Those should look a beauty . Is there any way to restrain the Sacred Band units to be buildable only in Carthage? That would be great to avoid high numbers of them in the fields. After all, as you said, they were "elite within an elite" ... and from the carthaginian homeland higher nobility I might add.

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Balearic Light Infantry =>
Have leather armor. Carries javelins. High Missile attack (like their slinger counterparts). Carries Sword and small shield, NOT knife. Leather helmet. Same tunic as above if appropriate.

Totally agree here. Hannibal's light inf was very useful in Italy and that was another of the hard lessons the romans learnt. Wether in Trebia (where they helped rout the enemy cav flanks) or in Cannae (where they were crucial to complete the double-envelopment of the LARGE roman 'meatball') they proved of great worth in close combat too. Both these Iberian javelineers and perhaps even the Balearic Slingers should have the feared falcatas. Here's a nice pic:



I have a suggestion though to avoid overcrowding. We could mix this Balearic Light Infantry and the Iberian Caetrati since both were the top light infantry/skirmishers and both were 'Iberians'. Add the javelin(s) to the Caetrati, as they should, and we have a pretty similar unit.

Hope we agree on most things

[Urnamma]

Can you quote them on the sarissa? Preferably with reliable PRIMARY sources... for some reason I find modern scholars making up or assuming quite often to have sth new to write their own 'historical' books...Till today I haven't found a reliable primary source quoting who mentions sarissas or any pikes among the carthaginian phalanxes, only assumptions.

In the first Punic war, a Spartan general reorganized the Carthaginian army and itroduced the Sarissa. I forget which text I read it in... I don't think it's in English. I am absolutely sure they were pikemen though. Mommsen can almost be considered a primary source. He is THE God of Roman history. Besides that, he died before a book on history would have really made you much money. He did it for his love of classical antiquity.

Also known, and probably more apropriate, as Iberian Caetrati (Caetra was the name of the small round shield). Agree with the white tunic with purple trim... but why the red in the crest? Their helmets varied a LOT and oftenly didn't even have a crest. Those who had a red one were probably captured from a dead roman . For protection, they very usually had a circular bronze/metal plate for the chest (where the draws in it varied a lot), and when affordable bronze/metal greaves and a bronze/metal belt... here CA depicted them quite well with exception for the obvious need of a falcata instead of the gladius and the need of a throwing javelin. Here's a nice pic:

We'll go with your info, it's more informed than mine on this. The red crest was to differentiate them as Carthaginian troops. Don't remember where I heard that.

Where's scutum I hope you don't mean the rectangular roman one but a oval one like the celts' common shields. Same doubts with the crest. Imo, MAJOR POINTS: Overall less charge and speed than the Caetrati but more defense and discipline. Very important is changing their primary weapon to a spear, that they combined with the soliferra (all metal javelin) to pin the enemy's main battle line. The feared falcatas (most of them used these but some used more straight swords like the gladius) were used for close (disordered) combat afterwards or on ambushes. Finally, why distinguish them from the Iberian Scutari? They were one and the same, drawed exactly from the same locations.

Aymar said they should be differentiated somewhat. I was thinking along that line, and that Carthaginian officers would 'whip them into shape' so to speak when it comes to discipline and battle order.

Well, I have presented before my LARGE doubts of their changing of primary weapon to the sword since Polybius, the only existing main source of those days never mentions it when describing the armies at Cannae, only refering to the armor as being captured from the romans. Honestly I don't see how he would 'forget' that mention while he was talking about that exact subject. Don't misundertand me though since those african troops always carried with them a short sword from the start that became their primary weapon for the ambushes and for close/disordered combat.... But since you insist I can go on with you in this one, on the condition you remove the roman helmets! That was a blasphemy!

Roman helmets removed, sword kept. Give and take.

There's no description details, afaik, on what they really looked like so where did you based your changes on? To be honest I find them pretty cool with those helmets and large shields .

There aren't any descriptions, granted. But... The Corinthian helmet was out of general use in the timeperiod. Since they were pikemen, and not spearmen, they would have used the smaller shields. I like the way they look too, but not at the expense of them being somewhat realistic. I was tempted to call them Elite Citizen Infantry, but decided Sacred Band sounded cooler, and since we have no way of knowing either way, could stay. Aymar has the final say on this though...

And for the 3rd level comes my MAIN suggestion in units. Iberian Heavy Cav. It's an obvious blunder by CA since Long shield cav is ultimately a light cav. The suposedly 'Sacred Band Cavalry' units CA brags about that subsisted with Hannibal in his iberian/gaul/italian campaign for 17 years ... were Iberian. There are no records of 'Sacred Band Cavalry' crossing the Alps (aparts probably from the officer corps). All ancient descriptions mention of Iberian Heavy Cavalry and Numidian light cav doing so, to the total number of 6000 (which were what varies but it is common to say 4000 were Numidian). It were those 2000 Heavy Iberian Cav that at Cannae (virtually with no losses till there) deployed as the first line of Hannibal's left flank. The other Gallic medium/heavy cav deployed behind them. Considering the almost immediate routing/crush effect they performed on the roman flank, and later in the roman rear, one has no doubts of their high efficiency. I even dare to add that these cav units were Hannibal's favourite force. Till the day Hasdrubal (his brother in law) died and Hannibal took command in Iberia as general.... Hannibal was the cav commander and with extraordinary reputation.

Then lets get rid of the burghers and give them Iberian Cavalry! Describe them, man!

Nice description. Those should look a beauty . Is there any way to restrain the Sacred Band units to be buildable only in Carthage? That would be great to avoid high numbers of them in the fields. After all, as you said, they were "elite within an elite" ... and from the carthaginian homeland higher nobility I might add.

I think there is a way to make them only available in Carthage. Thanks for the compliment

I have a suggestion though to avoid overcrowding. We could mix this Balearic Light Infantry and the Iberian Caetrati since both were the top light infantry/skirmishers and both were 'Iberians'. Add the javelin(s) to the Caetrati, as they should, and we have a pretty similar unit.

I don't know about this... The Balearics were a seperate culture from the Iberians... And they were better skirmishers per se (insofar as we are only describing javelin throwing and skirmishing). This is probably our only contention..

[[cF]HanBaal]

Still on the units and that you spoke only in the end of your post:

I think that all other Gallic and Iberian units recruited by Carthage should be made mercenaries to reflect their off and on status in Carthaginian armies. Some sort of recruitable Gallic swordsmen wouldn't be that bad though..

I disagree. Carthage had Iberian territories from where to recruit troops, though they were payed as if mercenaries and directly lead by one of their own people (as the numidians btw). Carthage did not held any Gallic territories from where to recruit so your idea of a "Some sort of recruitable Gallic swordsmen" seems way off...

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Building Changes:
Astarte and Tanit are distinct. Astarte is the consort of Milquart, and Tanit of Baal (-Hammon is superfluous. Baal with Astarte and Tanit with Milquart.

Hmm I'll go with you. And are you suggesting 4 deities for Carthage? If not we must decide yourself which 3 will be final and I don't think leaving Baal and Tanit out is advisable. These 2 were the 2 chief deites in Carthage. Remember that Carthage by 270BC has nothing to do with Tyre... where Melqart and Astarte were the chief deites but NOT in Carthage. Coins and many other proofs show that Tanit was the chief goddess of Carthage, and the consort of Baal-Hammon:

Here's another source that backs my last assertion:
"The chief deity was Baal Hammon, the community's divine lord and protector, who was identified by the Greeks with Cronus and by the Romans with Saturn. During the 5th century a goddess named Tanit (the equivalent (not the same then but just equivalent ) of the Phoenician goddess Astarte) came to be widely worshipped and represented in art. It is possible that her name is Libyan and that her popularity was connected with the acquisition of land in the interior, as she is associated with symbols of fertility. These two overshadow other deities such as Melqart, principal deity of Tyre, identified with Heracles, and Eshmoun, identified with Asclepius."

from: http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/carthage-religion.htm
(this is a nice link with MANY other external links and sources on this issue btw)


If you insist with Astarte and if it is possible, we can put in the 4 deities then. And perhaps making the same temple as the prerequisit for both the SB Inf and Cav units would be advisable too....it wouldn't be necessary if it was possible to build more than one kind of temple per city. Is it doable though? If not, we can adopt your suggested atributes for mounted troops to Melqart also:


Obv. head of Melqart
Rev. head horse; in field palm tree; in Punic script 'ommachanat' (= in the camp or people of the camp, meaning army headquarters)



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Aqueducts: (a huge city like Carthage with advanced city planning would have something similar)

Agreed but not aqueducts. Carthage's system was one of underground LARGE and numerous cisterns who kept waters in great quantities (excelent to prevent long draughts and long sieges) and distributed water all around. Here's something about that and the planned urbanization of Carthage you also refered:


"Archaeologists think that Carthage had an ‘urban’ character very early in its history and the arrangement of houses suggests that, by the end of the 8th century, there was already an urban plan in existence. This means Carthage was probably a planned city from the start, rather than being built up bit by bit in a higgledy-piggledy way. Evidence suggests that many Phoenicians cities were built or rebuilt to plans, particularly from the beginning of the fifth century.
...
There was also a coastal residential district, with formal street planning. The Greek historian Diodorus speaks of wealthy estates, which were well-irrigated and planted with vines, olives and fruit trees.
...
Because Carthage was later completely destroyed by Rome, little evidence has been found for the city. None of the temples on the Acropolis survive, but archaeologists have excavated a house on the Byrsa Hill. It dates from a period covering 200 years, from the eighth to the sixth centuries BC. When it was built, it consisted of a long rectangular building. There was a large enclosed courtyard at the front with a man-made well and four rooms at the back. The walls were made of mudbrick and were built on top of a stone foundation. The interior of the house was reorganized a number of times. It was probably two stories high and the roof would have been made of baked clay tiles. Archaeologists found evidence that offerings to the gods had been placed with the foundation. These were a clay oil lamp and pottery bowl and later a ceramic bottle was added, possibly with a burnt offering inside.

Other excavations in Carthage have shown that houses usually had a central courtyard with a well or impluvium (stone basin for collecting rainwater) in the centre. Rainwater was then stored underground. A colonnade would have surrounded the courtyard and led to the rooms of the house. Basic plumbing was usually present as a stone channel, which carried sewage into the street gutters.

A house would have had a kitchen which was usually long and narrow and would have had a hearth in one corner. The bedrooms were small and windowless and may have been upstairs. Houses would probably have had store rooms, service quarters and possibly shops at the front of the house. Archaeologists think that there were also multistory housing blocks. They have worked this out by studying the thickness of house walls, the number and capacity of underground cisterns under each house and the amounts of mosaic pavement material which must have come from at least two stories. The Greek historian Appian mentions buildings of six storeys."

As you see, instead of aqueducts I suggest Underground (Large) Cisterns.. maybe 2 new levels for small and large cisterns?



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Execution square could be changed to Sacrificial Site of Moloch, then Large Sacrificial Site, then Huge Sacrificial site... You get the picture. Same effect. Moloch sacrifice of children was common in Carthage.

And this I disagree. The sacrifice of children in Carthage is yet to be proved, contrary to what many sources say, and in the light of the evidence we have I believe there was no premeditated killings of children. Here's a self-explanatory article:

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Carthag...-sacrifice.htm

Conclusions one can take from the evidences available to us:

- Polybius, especially, and Livy too(though this is not so reliable once he was an 'enemy' of Carthage and born almost 100 years after Carthage's destruction) are the two most ancient and reliable sources and neither mentioned the issue. Both had no reasons to hide something so hedious about Carthage... quite the contrary;

-the assumption of the child sacrifice came later, way later, and was backed up by romans;

-the 'famous' bronze image of Cronus "extending its hands, palms up and sloping toward the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire" was in fact made up by Diodorus (the one who started the carthaginian myth) who "was probably mixing up stories about Carthage with ancient Sicilian myths, specifically the myth of the great bronze bull, built for the Sicilian tyrant Phalaris, in which the king's enemies were roasted alive";

-not even one inscription mentioned the deliberate killing of the child

-foreigners' inscripted vows exhisted and I agree definitely they wouldn't 'offer' their healthy child just because they were passing through

-born dead or young obituaries were considered to be 'recalled' by Baal to his 'home' for being special, and so it would be a dishonor to the Gods to be buried in a normal cemetery (and several other religions happen to do this too)

- the archaelogical discoveries that mention 20.000 urns in a timespan of at least 200 years are far from conclusive contrary to some people. In a large population such as Carthage (700.000 in its end but thought to have more than 1.000.000 in its zenith) plus the inumerous foreigners that also made their 'sacrifices' this is NOT a large number. In fact, it backs the idea that they were 'premature deaths' or 'born deads' with a special burial, coz medical technology was far less evolved than today and they occured much more than today. If you make your math those were less than 2 a week...

Add these facts to the known hate romans had towards Carthage and their desperate try to find morale excuses after the destruction of the city and the consequent genocide of its population when they represented no risk whatsoever to them. A 'moral' possible excuse to do it, even if made up, was very welcome to excuse the roman barbaric unmerciful act at the eyes of the other local/regional populations(especially the subjugated ones who could revolt) and to enhance their 'civilised' superior (aka nazism) wannabe status.