Question on Morale in RTW

[Ashitaka-san]

Ok, first off, I would like to ask if it's possible to view morale in RTW as it was possible in MTW (i.e. pressing F1 to get a heads up on morale numbers).
Now, on to my real question. Is it just me or does morale need to be reworked somewhat? I have had a few times where I had no idea why my units routed.
Several times, my units completely outnumbered the enemy. One time, I had the last unit of heavy cavalry surrounded. My army had just killed his general, and outnumbered his cavalry about 4 or 5 to 1. True, they were tired but come on. I would think that killing the general and on the verge of victory should spur them on and not cause them all to route!
Another, more recent, time, I was assaulting an egyptian city. I had a 4 star general leading my army and outnumbered them 3 to 1 (~1200 to ~400). My spy had opened the gate so I decided to just charge on in.
Now, there were no enemy infantry or any unit on the opposite side of the gate. There were about 3 archer units on the walls. So, obviously, my army lost soldiers running through the gates. Both to enemy archer fire and the burning oil from the gates.
Once they got inside, every single one of my units decided to route. This occured no matter what unit I sent in through the gates. This is completely ridiculous . Entering the city should spur the units on... and it's not like they lost a whole lot initially(maybe 10 - 20 soldiers per unit).
Does anyone else share my frustration? Morale never upset me this much in MTW.

[Ptah]

Frankly, it is hard to tell with just your descriptions alone. Times like this a battle replay save for normal campaign games would come really handy.

Basically, one of the most important factors are how much of your men are killed during in a short amount of time.

In the latter case, it is quite natural to expect to rout. From the approach they are battered and torn apart by arrow fire, and when they reach the gates firey oil splashes down. Basically your units are sent in to a march of death.

In the former case, surrounding a unit is often not what it seems to be. You may have surrounded an enemy unit, but even during such a fight the actual numbers of soldiers fighting are pretty small. Surrounding a unit is usually expected to win because one figures that even heavy casualties are sustained, ultimately the surrounded band will wear down first. However, if the surrounded units are so powerful that they disrupt that logic, then basically no matter how much people you put into it merely means you throw more meat into the grinder. The meat will soon figure that its better to just run away, than get caught in the grinder. The battle of Thermopylae comes into mind.

There are much more factors in work, and sometimes an overwhelming force may not cut it. Thus, again, its hard to tell just what happened with your words alone, but the chances are that nothing actually may be wrong.

[Ashitaka-san]

Well, thanks for your input. Let me just add a little bit to this.

For the castle storming scenario, what annoyed me most was that my units routed AFTER they went through the gates. If they had routed while getting hit by arrows and burning oil, I would sort of figure that's why they routed.
However, the routing occurred after this occurred. I was trying to get them to move up to the tower areas and attack the archers. That is when they decided to route.

For the scenario where the cavs were surrounded, my main point was that the general had just been killed. That should both boost my units morale and be detrimental to the enemy's morale. However, since ALL of my units routed a few seconds later, this doesn't seem to be the case. And, from my recollection, my units weren't taking that heavy of losses, they were just very tired.

You are probably right that there is nothing wrong; I may just have been blinded by my annoyance of routing units when so close to a victory.
However, I do feel that killing an enemy general should both boost friendly morale (they must feel damn good and close to victory after killing him) and be detrimental to enemy morale (for obvious reasons). I'm guessing that only the latter is done at this time because my units wouldn't have routed if the former was true as well.

[Colovion]

I hate the loss of the fatigue bars and more detailed morale descriptions from MTW (ie: "worried about flanks" "feeling safe on hill")

[Lonewarrior]

I hate the loss of the fatigue bars and more detailed morale descriptions from MTW (ie: "worried about flanks" "feeling safe on hill")

Agreed, it was easy to tell what your troops are thinking but not anymore sadly.

[Zild]

With all the criticism of how easy the game is, perhaps this is a good thing?

I know some people restrict themselves to general-view - not knowing at a glance how a remotely located unit feels is probably more realistic, and adds another challenge...

[Bhruic]

However, the routing occurred after this occurred. I was trying to get them to move up to the tower areas and attack the archers. That is when they decided to route.

Well, I can see their points, sort of. I mean, they survived the arrow storm, the boiling oil, and made it inside. All well and good. But then you tell them to go attack a superior force. They wouldn't have looked kindly on that. I'm not sure I would have routed back through the boiling oil, however.

For the scenario where the cavs were surrounded, my main point was that the general had just been killed. That should both boost my units morale and be detrimental to the enemy's morale. However, since ALL of my units routed a few seconds later, this doesn't seem to be the case. And, from my recollection, my units weren't taking that heavy of losses, they were just very tired.

I've had similar situations. I was skirmishing with some HA. I was moving one of my (tired) HA units to the enemy rear to attack them, when he routed. Again, probably being alone and isolated caused him to route. You may have killed the general, but how many casualties were you taking? If more than the enemy, you'd probably want to route no matter who you killed.

But I agree that it would be very nice to have more detailed information. I'm kind of annoyed by the lack, because in my Thracian campaign, I'm building temples of Ares, which supposedly add +1 to unit morale. But I have no way of checking the unit's morale as a number in combat, so I can't tell how good that is. It was much nicer with the old 'F1' key.

Bh

[sapi]

i was the julii and fighting the gauls. I was outnumbered, but my 4 units of hastari were holding fine, 'victory seems certain', and they were only shaken. Then, with no warning, they all routed! What's up with that? It's not as if my general was killed or anything!

On a related note, CA should really bring back the status indicators....

[Ashitaka-san]

Well, I can see their points, sort of. I mean, they survived the arrow storm, the boiling oil, and made it inside. All well and good. But then you tell them to go attack a superior force. They wouldn't have looked kindly on that. I'm not sure I would have routed back through the boiling oil, however.

You could be right here. However, I was asking them to attack archers up in the towers. I wouldn't really consider that superior :-). But maybe it was the whole rushing the tower scenario that phased them.

I've had similar situations. I was skirmishing with some HA. I was moving one of my (tired) HA units to the enemy rear to attack them, when he routed. Again, probably being alone and isolated caused him to route. You may have killed the general, but how many casualties were you taking? If more than the enemy, you'd probably want to route no matter who you killed.

Like I said, I don't think I was taking heavy casualties but that could have been the case. Still, I believe that they should give a morale boost to nearby units for killing the general. I mean, to see the enemy leader go down would make me want to fight on. If they still take heavy casualties, they would route but a slight boost would cause them to stay if casualties aren't so bad.
In my case I was in, his cavalry was surrounded... from my experience, surrounded cavalry usually get decimated pretty quickly. So, that slight morale boost (I'm not saying anything ridiculous, just a small amount) would have caused my units to not route right away and probably wipe him out instead.

[KukriKhan]

This is a fine discussion of both gameplay issues, and battlefield tactics. Any objection to moving it to the Colosseum for more exposure?

[Ptah]

Still, I believe that they should give a morale boost to nearby units for killing the general

Morale, both in the game and in reality, is a very slippery thing. Killing the enemy general might motivate a soldier, but whatever "boost" he had will again quickly diminish if somebody puts a steel blade through his chest.

Like said, it comes down to just what kind of situation was on the field. Being surrounded spells death for most soldiers, but in turn that kind of situation can light the final sparks of a man's soul. "Fight to the death" is exactly that kind of situation - if there is no escape, the surrounded units will continue to fight. If the fight they put up is mean enough, it just might be enough to shake and scare the attackers to rout first. It is a rare thing, but it does happen, both in the game and in reality.

There's an old military motto in the Far East that goes, "one who chooses to die will live, the one who chooses to live will die". Who knows? Maybe the surrounded band of those cavalrymen gave up on all hope, and fought their last stand, and was in turn rewarded with the miracle of life.

[Red Harvest]

KukriKhan, I agree, it is a good discussion and certainly merits a move.

Others, I also wish we had more of the info about what was happening to impact unit morale. That was a feature that was superior in MTW. Would also like more info on terrain effects...trees, rocks, desert, etc. Not sure that all of these even work at the moment.

I also agree that the units do very irrational things when they are through the gates. They seem very panicky and prone to run away. Instead they should be jubilant for having already run the gauntlet. One would expect them to be satisfied that they can finally strike back at their tormentors who were previously out of reach. There are few things more demoralizing than standing there taking casualties without having any means to fight back.