The Hardest Faction

I've played three campaigns now, a Scippi, Germanic and Spanish. All short campaigns on VH/VH. I have to say that while the spanish campaign was pretty hairy for quite a while, it's a little dissapointing how easy the game turned out to be. Admittedly I shamelessly exploit the gliches in the AI such as it's inability to deal with forts on the campaign map, or with skirmishes and sieges in battle. It's still a really enjoyable game though, despite some flaws.

Still I'm hoping there is a faction or two out there that is a real tough nut to play with for my next campaign, so I'd like to know what everyone considers to be the hardest faction to play with. I've left the romans off the poll, and probably should have left some others off as well, but I don't know much about a lot of the factions.

Spain. Numidia is challenging, but spain is the hardest out there. I can't even contemplate beating the spanish campaign without bribes.

word on the street is Spain - and i think it has to be modded to be played.

With Spain you get fantastically crappy early game units... Iberian infantry, town militia and round shield is about it until your cities slowwwwwwly grow. Mercs can fill the gap, with money you don't have anyway. Once you get scutarii and bull warriors its pretty smooth.

No matter how hard spain is parthia is harder. Even if you cheat as the parthians your still on a shoe string most of the time.

Hmm, odd, I found both Spain and Parthia very easy. I suppose they would be hard if you tried to play them with infantry, but as long as you go cavalry, you are fine.

As Spain, kick Carthage out ASAP. Then make peace. They will agree, and likely not bother you again, as you are too far away, and they will be too busy. Then you've only got one enemy - Gaul.

As Parthia, you've got your back to the wall, somewhat literally. HA are excellent, and there are plenty of smaller factions in the neighbourhood to take on. Armenia is a good choice, as they get HA too, so you don't want them expanding.

I voted for Thrace. Poor economy to start with, as the others, but also poor cavalry. As cavalry tends to rule the game, that's a disadvantage. Especially as your neighbours tend to be quite expansionist. The only advantage they have is that the Romans (well, Brutii, mainly) tend to keep the neighbours busy. But then you have to deal with the Brutii, which can be worse.

Bh

Parthia isn't really hard. You can easily take out the Seleucids as they don't have a counter to HAs, especially in the beginning. Just be careful not to expand too fast and get into a fight with Egypt.

I've played Pontus as well and it isn't hard, either. I attacked the Seleucids then went to war with Egypt. It was even easier as we fought around Antioch and it was closer to my most well developed cities at the time. That and I completely ditched melee infantry until I got to phalanx pikemen. I tried using eastern infantry as Parthia and they're only good for ramming walls.

The hardest factions probably have a combination of bad early units, poor or stretched out starting provinces and powerful neighbors.

I choose factions differently. I choose the ones whose units I find the most interesting at the time.

Numidia. I find Spain OK once you take Corduba off the Carthaginians, you start getting money to do stuff, although I think Spain is the second hardest out there. Numidians are up against the Egyptians and the Scipii, who will beat up the Carthaginians very quickly and conquer Carthage, and with all of Sicily in their grasp have the money to start churning out units.

Spain is pretty tough, Numidia is a tough one also. Spain has the unit/towns problem and Numidia has the land mass problem. I remember in Medieval those areas were my favorite because they were big hunks of land, now in Rome thats the reason I hate them.

dont exploit the game dont use bribes all the time dont use all cav armies etc and you´ll see its not as easy :p

It's got to be Numidia - no money, vast provinces (it takes forever to actually get anywhere, since it's difficult to scrape together the money for even basic roads and still have an army), your armies consist almost solely of Javelinman and Numidian Cavalry (and the Javelinmen get mown down by anything on a horse)... Spain attacking from the west, Egypt attacking from the east, and your one stable ally, Carthage, destined to crumble and be replaced with a Roman faction to your north.

Well, Armenia is small, it practically only takes a few years for Parthia to wipe you out.

Originally Posted by Bhruic

As cavalry tends to rule the game

Tell that to the Romans.

Incidentally I just KNEW that was your post I was reading because of the way you always swoop in with precisely the exact opposite opinion or game experience from everyone else. It's weird.

Originally Posted by Midnight

It's got to be Numidia - no money, vast provinces (it takes forever to actually get anywhere, since it's difficult to scrape together the money for even basic roads and still have an army), your armies consist almost solely of Javelinman and Numidian Cavalry (and the Javelinmen get mown down by anything on a horse)... Spain attacking from the west, Egypt attacking from the east, and your one stable ally, Carthage, destined to crumble and be replaced with a Roman faction to your north.

I find it quite wierd but yes, Spain ALWAYS attacks Numidia. Every time without fail. I wonder what the Spanish fascination with Numidia is?

It's just the Crusaders getting off to an early start.

Originally Posted by GFX707

Tell that to the Romans.

I do. All the time. Every time they bring their infantry to my gates and get massively wiped out by my cavalry.

Incidentally I just KNEW that was your post I was reading because of the way you always swoop in with precisely the exact opposite opinion or game experience from everyone else. It's weird.

Hardly "everyone else". Someone else voted for Thrace. And Numidia is winning, which would have been my second choice.

Bh

Does anyone have any experience with Dacia? I started up a campaign as the Dacians and was instantly losing over 1k per turn. With finances in the gutter and no real prospects to increase income my game ground to a halt very quickly. Does this qualify as a 'hard' faction at all?

TinCow, I just voted for Dacia. I got my ass thrown back at me when I played Dacia, and I tried twice. The combination of poverty and the Mac's. Scythians, Germans, then Brutii pounding on me from all directions made life miserable. Just could not do it.

It's one thing to be surrounded, but if you got the ability to make cash (Selecuids, Carthage, Greeks) you can deal with roundy neighbours. But that situation with Dacia is just grim as hell. I had a much better time with Thrace (barbarian/greek combo was cool), with black sea access and taking Byzantium I actually had a good economy going and I could fight off everyone. Game too easy for ya's, try Dacia.

Originally Posted by GFX707

Tell that to the Romans.

Incidentally I just KNEW that was your post I was reading because of the way you always swoop in with precisely the exact opposite opinion or game experience from everyone else. It's weird.

The trick with cavalry is to not let them get bogged down in melee.. charge, double click to pull back, charge again... the more cavalry you have the better it is, because while one unit is pulling back, others are charging (pick isolated end units on a flank, and pick on em with most of your cav until they route, then work up the flank..) Once two or three units on the flank have routed, it normally becomes a route-fest, with the human as the winner. This is especially true if you are using a few center infantry units to fix the center while the cav is eating on the flank.

Many military historians think that Hannibal and his adherents to cavalry based warfare were 'forward thinkers' to Medieval times, when cavalry became king (because it could out-maneuver infantry and provided more tactical flexibility). I think RTW recognizes this historical fact.

Whether it contributes to the fun factor is up for debate though..

had some real fun with the dacians it's defintely a "hard" faction. Your best bet with them is to take all the rebel provinces near you and then border fort yourself in whereever possible.
I suffered my most humiliating defeat playing as the dacians, i had an entire army wiped out losing a good family member and there was actually a historic battle marker on the spot to celebrate my defeat. The worst part, it was vs Rebels... :(

Let's not forget here- Armenia is tiny. Tiny army, tiny economy, tiny cities, the only thing not tiny about them is the Carpathian mountains, which offer good defence in many cases. You are surrounded on practically all sides by factions much much stronger than you- the Pontics, the Parthians, the Seleucids and the Scythians. As a rule, the Parthians always attack you, wars usually start up when you as Armenia attacks Phraaspa. BIG MISTAKE. The Parthians practically own this settlement, even though it's technically rebel. It takes only two turns for them to conquer Media. And for Armenia it would take at least 4 or 5, meaning that by the time you are close enough, it belongs to Parthia, which means that you are transgressing and will undoubtedly cause a war, which you are definately going to be the loser of, no question.

The thing about Numidia is that although it may be hard to manage, you are in for a slow defeat which means you do have time to tips the scales in your favour. Numidia basically starts with no navy, and building one is obviously the key to defeating Spain. Egypt is not so easy though...

Numidia, pretty hard, I found Spain challenging too, but you only get one vote.

Numida

Spain is by far the harder faction than Numidia IMO. For one reason only... Rome. The hardest enemy for Spain is not the Gauls, but the Julii. The Romans always invade with general armies making them hard to bribe. Also the hastati are a hell of a lot toughter than warbands, your roundshields can't hope to take on hastati even with repeated charges, those Roman bastasrds just stand up too well to it. Another point that makes the Julii hard to fight is where you fight them at. Since they always land at Osca, you have a hard time reinforcing and retraining your men cause Osca is so underdeveloped and grows slowly.

With the Numidians, you can make peace with Carthage and keep it so you only have to worry about Egypt. The Spanish threat is little cause they bring so few troops and your light armies can take them on no problem in the desert where you have the natural advantage. The Egyptian chariot archers are a pain but with enough light infantry (i.e. skirmishers) You can hold you own.

Originally Posted by Turin

Also the hastati are a hell of a lot toughter than warbands, your roundshields can't hope to take on hastati even with repeated charges, those Roman bastasrds just stand up too well to it.

Er, what? I'm not trying to be insulting, so don't take this the wrong way, but if you can't defeat hastati with round shields, you are using them wrong. Round shields eat hastati for breakfast. Then they have principes for lunch. A successful cavalry charge into the rear of a hastati unit routs them most of the time. And even when it doesn't, you can usually pull back and charge again.

Another point that makes the Julii hard to fight is where you fight them at. Since they always land at Osca, you have a hard time reinforcing and retraining your men cause Osca is so underdeveloped and grows slowly.

A more valid point. There are a couple ways you can deal with this. Someone suggested forts, which can work quite well.

With the Numidians, you can make peace with Carthage and keep it so you only have to worry about Egypt. The Spanish threat is little cause they bring so few troops and your light armies can take them on no problem in the desert where you have the natural advantage. The Egyptian chariot archers are a pain but with enough light infantry (i.e. skirmishers) You can hold you own.

The problem with that strategy is that Carthage is going to fall to the Scipii. That means that unless you have pulled off the opening game quite well, you are going to be hit by another (quite powerful by that point) faction. Having to face the Romans and the Egyptians is a daunting proposition for any faction.

Bh

Numidia. Spain is tough, but not nearly the challenge of Numidia on VH/VH. The Spanish troops are not such a problem because you get good cav. Who cares about infantry in RTW? The Spanish economy gets going quicker than Numidia and is more robust once you get it going. On VH/VH you will have one heck of a time dealing with the Egyptians and their iron skinned axemen. As Numicia Carthage succumbs rapidly to the Scipii and you find yourself facing the Scipii very early. With Spain you only have to hold off the Gauls and Julii (and relieve the Carthaginians of Cordoba as soon as you can manage it. Given the choice of facing Gauls or Egyptians...the Gauls are easier to face.

Not to mention that if the Scipii make war on you, all Romans would be at war with you and they'll have tons of ships against you. Conquering and maintaining distant lands would be harder at that point.

Wow, if I just tried out Numidia and I have to say, they are super hard! Their cities are just so far apart, it takes forever to get anywhere! Plus, it's basically impossible to develop because of the rubbish economy. Numidia does train some quite cost effective units though.

On top of that, basically everyone wants to attack you, with the exception of Carthage.

If I could change my vote now I would.

Oh, and I have played Spain before, and I know what they're like but Numidia is much, much harder. And Spain does also get the best non-roman infantry type, the Bull Warriors.

All cavalry armies suck if you are using the kill rate mod. wich to me is more realistic and more fun than just taking a bunch of cavarly and gang raping units 1 at a time. It still can be done with the kill rate mod but much riskier and the price heavier.

In response to BH... Hastati do not rout that easily you can throw in your round shields as hard as you like even to their rear and they will still hold. Of course you'll loose a quarter of you rouns shields in the charge and even morewhen you pull out to charge again...