Regarding Spears and Cavalry

**Jambo** · 10-29-2004, 10:43

Hi,

There seems to be some inconsistencies with regards to what bonuses and attributes some spearmen have throughout the units file. It would seem that some spear units have the "spear" attribute, some have "spear" and "long_pike", some have a "mount-effect" bonus and on one occasion, a unit actually has both "spear" and the "mount_effect"....

Triarii and Roman Auxilla have the mount_effect bonus.
German Spear Warband have the spear attribute.
Carthaginian medium infantry have the mount_effect.
Carthaginian heavy infantry (Poeni) have the spear
Sacred Band infantry have the spear.
East heavy infantry have both the mount-effect and the spear attributes.
East Hoplite and all the Greek Pikemen have spear and long_pike attributes.
Spartan Hoplites and other Greek Hoplite varieties only have the spear attribute.
And some spearmen don't have any bonuses or attributes, e.g. Town Watch and East Infantry.

So, in short there doesn't seem to be much consistency as to whether a unit gets a mount_effect bonus, the spear and/or the long_spear attributes, or any combination of the above. Maybe this might go some way in helping to explain the relative power of cavalry versus spear units?

Regards

**Bob the Insane** · 10-29-2004, 10:53

Well the one with the "spear" or "long_pike" attributes are the ones with the phalanx ability...

I can't imagine why any unit would have the phalanx ability and not have the mount effect...

There is alos a listing for Primary weapon whcih can also be a Spear... But this is not the same as the "Spear" attribute...

You are right about things appearing to be a little confused in the unit stat files...

**Jambo** · 10-29-2004, 11:02

Hi Bob,

Doesn't the Phalanx ability require the Phalanx formation in addition to the "spear" and/or "long_pike" attribute?

In other words, is it possible to have the spear or long_pike and not be able form the phalanx?

**Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe** · 10-29-2004, 11:22

Yes, it is possible to have spears and not being able to form a phalax (Triarii)

And Yes, form phalanx is what makes a unit able to form phalanx. Again see Triarii

You are right, I find all this very confusing.

At some point, I fought they put some mount effect for units with spears without phalanx ability, and that phalanx was giving specific bonus against cavalry.

Alas, some units got both mount effect AND can form phalanx. Do they get dual bonus? Or the assumption that phalanx was giving a special bonus wrong?

Overall, the unit file is very messy. It really looks like as they have changed their mind a couple of times on how they would code the units. Eventually the overall feeling and fear is that all that is not really consistent.

I'd be interested by CA feedback on that topic.

Louis,

**Bob the Insane** · 10-29-2004, 12:34

Thanks for the corrections... Guess I would be modding for a while yet...

Pray for the holy grail that is the RTW SDK....

**Jambo** · 10-29-2004, 12:52

Actually, although Triarii do have spears they don't have the "spear" attribute. All they have is the mount_effect bonus.

**dcd111** · 10-31-2004, 13:45

Originally Posted by Bob the Insane

I can't imagine why any unit would have the phalanx ability and not have the mount effect...

I was reading a thread over at twcenter.net that was discussing this issue. One possible reason there might be phalanx-capable units without the mount effects is that the mount effects are applied regardless of whether the units are using primary or secondary weapons, whereas the "spear" attribute is weapon-specific and can be applied to one and not the other. In some cases with phalanx-forming units, the secondary weapon is a normal sword or something similar, which should not have a bonus against mounted units, so giving them the mount effects wouldn't make sense in cases where they attack with their secondary weapon.

Nonetheless, there doesn't seem to be any real consistency, hopefully some of this will be better implemented in the patch, or a modder will clean this up once the true effects of the spear attribute are better understood.

- dcd111

**Red Harvest** · 10-31-2004, 16:14

There are a lot of consistency issues with units at the moment. Spears, pikes, phalanx, and mount effects are one part of that. Check out shields to see some glaring inconsistencies. For mounted units, some small shields are +4 (same as large shields) while others are +2. Sometimes a unit gets a +5 shield rating while not having any shield (pharaoh's guards.)

Long pikes are very effective against cav (at least while in phalanx formation) so they have some built in bonuses. Short pikes are not used by any units so far.

I think CA was a bit rushed and did not finish up balancing of the units.

**Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe** · 11-09-2004, 11:03

I am going to bump this one....

Louis,

**Jace11** · 11-09-2004, 11:42

Do Triarii get the mount bonus so they do not get a penalty for fighting against infantry.

If the intro to the unit desc file is correct

; stat_pri_attr
; primary weapon attributes any or all of
; ap = armour piercing. Only counts half of target's armour
; bp = body piercing. Missile can pass through men and hit those behind
; spear = Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry
; long_pike = Use very long pikes. Phalanx capable units only
; short_pike = Use shorter than normal spears. Phalanx capable units only
; prec = Missile weapon is only thrown just before charging into combat
; thrown = The missile type if thrown rather than fired
; launching = attack may throw target men into the air
; area = attack affects an area, not just one man

then phalanx units don't get mount effect cause they get hidden bouses and penalties from having "phalanx", Triarii do not form phalanx so shouldn't get a penalty when fighting infantry but cause they have spears they need a bonus against cavalry.

Armenian infantry if they can for phalanx and get mount bonuses are way out there, I have no idea about that