Skirmishers

[Zorn]

Having just completed my first long Campaign (Scipii med/med), I wondered what skrmishers are all about.
I used velites quite frequently in the pre-Marius time. I deployed them in skirmish mode in Front of my battleline. They would usually fire one volley or two, then fall back behind the infantery. When they have done so, the legionaries (on fire at will) have free sight on the enemy wich is at perfect pilum range. So they let one volley lose before the fighting begins.
Sounds like a perfect strategy, and it was quite exactly what the real romans did.
Now comes the big BUT.
If I check the statistics afterwards, the velites just didn`t inflict casualities worth mentioning. Usually 5-10 kills per unit (large unitsize). That`s just not worth it. I would be better off by deploying a unit or two of hastati instead. I woud have a stronger battle line, and could still throw javelins.


Being an old school AOK/AOM player, I tried skirmishers as a anti-archer unit. The results were discouraging, to say the least. They were torn into pieces before they could even close in to be in range. And even if they made it, they ran out of ammunition before they can inflict real damage.



So far, I could see no real use for these guys.


Am I doing anything wrong or are they just plain useless?

[Sinner]

Overall I would agree that many skirmishers are about as much use as a chocolate teapot. Enemy units approach so quickly and it takes so long for the skirmishers to prepare to throw that sometimes you're lucky to get even a single volley off. In melee they're more of a liability than an aid, being prone to routing which can lead to a chain rout, and if you use them as a second line, lobbing javelins at the enemy, you risk far too many friendly fire casualties.

I use them if I have to, put prefer to use archers and light cavalry for missile fire and skirmishing.

[qmark]

Nope you're just experiencing the same 'feature' everyone else has. As far as I know (I've not really had a chance to play it) the Total Realism Mod has a greater impact with the javelin.

In RL you'd think a wapping great big cloud of pointy metal would cause some grief eh?

[warlordmb]

Hello Zorn,

This question is a bit like the one posed earlier in the Colisseum about archers and their effectivness.

I think skirmishers such as Velites best effect is not thier kill numbers but the way it effects morale. Any unit suffering missile fire begins to suffer with its morale. I agree with you about archers and their effects. You can not counter enemy archer units with skirmishers. Try light cav as your anti-archer threat. The archers will turn and run if your charging cav gets close enough because they will be default set on skirmish mode. Your cav might take a volley but it will only be one before they get close enough (if your really lucky your cav will pile into the enemy skirmishers and get to kill a few - just be ready to charge away quickly and then charge again. Leaving your light cav in melee with even archers can get lots of them killed.}

You might lose 3-4 of your light cav in that one volley but they are the best anti-archer threat I know of in the game. This is a tactic the AI uses alot in reverse and you can use this as a tactic against the AI. Use a unit of archers as cav bait, just make sure you have more archer units ready to unload on the charging enemy cav or have a unit of heavy cav waiting to counter-charge.

If your looking for something to balance missile fire a bit take a look at the Rome:Total Realism Mod 3.1 by Gaius Julius over at TotalWar Centre. this mod among many other great tweaks

1. makes archers only available to the romans after the Marius reforms (Marius occurs much, much later in the game because of tweaks to the population rates and therefore the building of improvements}

2. Increases the effectiveness of missile and pilum fire. They cause far more casualties now

3. Roman factions get a slinger unit instead of archers at the start (more historical)

4. IF your still having problems with archers hire a couple of Cretan archer units from any of the Greek states. They have the long range ability which means they can shred enemy archer units long before they get close as well as doing serious damage to enemy troop formations as they have really good missile strike stats.

hope this helps.

[*Ringo*]

Have you tried maneuvering your skirmishers behind the enemy line once they engage your Hastati? Pointy sticks in the back don't go down too well with most units!

Otherwise, skirmishers do exactly what it says on the tin! Useful for distraction and breaking up enemy formations. They need to be protected but can make a real difference; especially Velites (sp?), they are quite useful to support melee units at the turning point of a battle. Cheap and expendable troops, i never leave home without them! Watch that friendly fire tho!!!

*Ringo*

[SwordsMaster]

Hey all.

I havent finished even a single campaign, but Ive started a few and here are my observations:

Skirmishers have to be ahead of your main line, sufficiently far as to make the enemy disrupt their formation when chasing them, but close enough as to allow being supported by your main line.

Heavy infantry is particularly sensitive to skirmishers because it is slow and tires quikly because of the heavy armour. Particularly true against other romans or Hoplites.

NEVER attack archers except with slingers. the archers' range is waaaay superior.

NEVER attack cavalry coming at you. Instead, push to one side and release a volley as the cavalry rides past. This envolves a little micromanagement tho.

I find the skirmishers pretty useless against barbarians or lightly armoured troops. As you say, you might as well have another couple of Hastati.

Playing as Carthage, though against Roman foes, my main battleline NEVER engaged in combat (in some 50 years of campaign), except for chasing down routers in some occasions. The skirmishers combined with cavalry are pure gold for Carthage.

Thats pretty much all I can think of.
Hope t helps.

[ericostermann]

After 100 Turns I adapted two things. One I had to move them way ahead. I let them start marching and after they had a good distance I moved the rest of the Army Forward. By being way ahead I found they were better at doing the job of firing and retreating over and over again, forcing the enemy to dpeloy, or causing enemy cavalry to come forward of the enemy's own line. Two, I had to accept a high casualty rate as I used them also to break up a warband charge to eliminate that bonus. I find the warband breaks my line about 50% of the time in that it destroys of of my front line units that often, so I let the velites sometimes take the charge, stall it, and then retreat behind my Main Line which then launches pilum.

Things I like about skirmishers is using them at bridge battles or supporting a unit at a wall/gate breach and the fact that I run them everywhere because they throw missle sand don't fight hand to hand so I think there being tired effects their capabilities less. The big thing I found is that when it is down toward the end I can charge them in for a little extar push. Velites at 90% strength can turn the tide if the opposing unit is at its last legs.

[Sleepy]

Currently playing as Carthage at the moment and Velites are a bugger for me as they seem to be able to destroy my Long Shield cavalry in HTH combat. Other units get devestated by a charge but the Velites seem to soak up the charge with minimla loss and then slaughter the poor horsies.

Considering I'm using cavlary based armies its annoying and with their speed trying to maneover to flank or rear attack is hard work.

[Doug-Thompson]

I would be better off by deploying a unit or two of hastati instead. I woud have a stronger battle line, and could still throw javelins.

Amen to that. In the rare occasion where I've played the Romans, I put a line of hastati behind a long, thin line of triariai as an anti-cavalry unit. The thin line maximizes the spear unit's charge bonus, the javelins kill some more, and the final charge by the hastati finishes them off.

Being an old school AOK/AOM player, I tried skirmishers as a anti-archer unit. The results were discouraging, to say the least. They were torn into pieces before they could even close in to be in range. And even if they made it, they ran out of ammunition before they can inflict real damage.

No argument there.

I like slingers, which can "shoot and scoot" much better than archers. They are also faster, which means they can get behind a melee unit more quickly.

Granted, any missile unit is more effective from behind, but this seems particularly true in R:TW. The shield is everything for some infantry, especially spears.

Oddly, I've found skirmishers strangely effective in sieges. If there's a small number of defenders, they don't want to get away from the central plaza. Two slinger units, for instance, one killed a whole unit of Egyptian cavalry that didn't want to leave the square.