Desperate need for birth control

[Didz]

This problem with revolting peasants is becoming tedious. My empire circles the Mediteranean from Rome through Macedonia and Syria to Alexandria and at any one time I can be certain of having at least two cities in active revolt.

On each occassion I have to detail off extermination squads to go and murder the entire population but immediately after culling I gain just a few years of peace before they are hammering on the doors of the Governors house again causing trouble. Some of these cities manage an annual birth rate of 10% and as soon as they begin to top the 24K mark they begin to get upset about things I can't do anything about.

The cities are fully developed with every amenity known to modern science, there is really nothing more that Rome can do for them, except periodically murder their families which seems a bit heavy handed but is currently the only solution I've discovered.

I think this game mechanic needs to be adjusted as part of the next patch as its becoming a bore.

[andrewt]

There's a few measures I'd suggest: (on your troublesome cities)
1. Garrison as many peasant units you can afford. You won't get the max (80%) with 24,000 people, even with 20 peasant units. At least, however, you'll get a decent amount.
2. Low taxes. It'll create a 0.5% population bonus but it'll still net you 25% public order.
3. Replace your temples with the Saturn/Jupiter line. Don't go Pantheon with Jupiter as it will increase your population more than the public order bonus from awesome temple. It doesn't matter for the Brutii as they'll all have the same net public order bonus anyway.
4. Hippodrome and arenas. Monthly gives you 20% for 400. Daily gives you 10% for another 400. If you have both in 1 city, go monthly with both first as it is more effective than having one of them at daily.
5. If your cities are still rebellious, move your taxes to high or very high immediately after an extermination. Lower as needed. This will delay population growth back to more than 24,000.
6. If you have high culture penalties, destroy and rebuild some buildings.

[Didz]

There's a few measures I'd suggest: (on your troublesome cities)

Hi Andrew, Thanks for the suggestions but I think I have been through most already.

1. Garrison as many peasant units you can afford. You won't get the max (80%) with 24,000 people, even with 20 peasant units. At least, however, you'll get a decent amount.

Must admit I haven't tried peasant garrisons. I tried building peasants constantly and sending them off into the desert to get slaughtered by the enemy. The problem is they build to slowly, only reduce city populations by 200 each and cost 100 gold to maintain, also they have an annoying habit of surviving, mostly by running away. So, I gave up on that.

2. Low taxes. It'll create a 0.5% population bonus but it'll still net you 25% public order.

Tried that but it didn't work. In fact, it made the situation worse the more money you let the peasant keep the more children they feel able to afford and so population growth goes through the roof. At present Very High Tax is about the only form of birth control available in the game.

3. Replace your temples with the Saturn/Jupiter line. Don't go Pantheon with Jupiter as it will increase your population more than the public order bonus from awesome temple. It doesn't matter for the Brutii as they'll all have the same net public order bonus anyway.

I'm playing Brutii so I'm using temples of Juno and they are all at their maximum public order level.

4. Hippodrome and arenas. Monthly gives you 20% for 400. Daily gives you 10% for another 400. If you have both in 1 city, go monthly with both first as it is more effective than having one of them at daily.

I've used this method but I think the cost is too prohibitive to do for long. I say, think, because the financial reporting in RTW is so bad its difficult to tell whether your cities are running at a loss so I'm only guessing.

5. If your cities are still rebellious, move your taxes to high or very high immediately after an extermination. Lower as needed. This will delay population growth back to more than 24,000.

This is standard practice in my game. All cities except a few whose populations are stable at a lower tax level are on VHT, however, some in the eastern empire are still managing 3% growth so there seems to be absolutely no way to stop them breeding or keep them happy.

6. If you have high culture penalties, destroy and rebuild some buildings.

Since capturing Memphis I have no culture penalties at all or at least none of my cities report culture penalties. In fact I would have put the problem down to distance from capital if it was limited to my Eastern Cities but I have similar problems in Macedonia too so it can't be the only factor.

[Sleepy]

High influence govenors are very effective at maintaining control of a big city (40% max to PO plus possible law bonus as well) this generally means senate officials. If you are rich, 50K+ in the bank then its possible that your goveners have gained too many bad vices to be worth it. Remove them from the city if so.

To get 10% growth have you got advanced farms and public health buildings? If so destroy the public health buildings, it may trigger the next rebellion for cities on the cusp but afterwards the growth will be slower. And (allthough I've not tested this) it seems to me that cities that grow slower dont have as big a PO problem as fast growth cities.

Is some of your population growth from slaves? If so change your military tactics.

Another tactic is to deliberately infect your problem cities with the plague. Just remove govenors/agents before. Its cheaper than having an extermination army nearby. Plus you dont lose the revenue or gain a repair bill.

Capital relocation may help with distance/corruption penalties. As there is no cost to moving your capital and you can do it as often as you like in a turn its an easy experiment to conduct

[Didz]

High influence govenors are very effective at maintaining control of a big city (40% max to PO plus possible law bonus as well) this generally means senate officials. If you are rich, 50K+ in the bank then its possible that your goveners have gained too many bad vices to be worth it. Remove them from the city if so.

I don't have that many governors let alone high influence ones and as I am currently at war with the senate none of them have senate offices.

To get 10% growth have you got advanced farms and public health buildings? If so destroy the public health buildings, it may trigger the next rebellion for cities on the cusp but afterwards the growth will be slower. And (allthough I've not tested this) it seems to me that cities that grow slower dont have as big a PO problem as fast growth cities.

Yes. That was my big mistake. In future games I shall ignore the farm upgrades unless I need them to promote city growth. As it is I built almost all the farm upgrades before I realised they were a game gliche and could not be destroyed.

However, they don't solve the problem merely delay its onset and reduce its frequency. The only real solution is to achieve 0% growth at the right time in the cities development and thats a really difficult thing to achieve.

Is some of your population growth from slaves? If so change your military tactics.

No, as far as I am concerned having played the game nearly to completion the options upon capturing a city are just a red-herring. The only option worth considering is total extermination, leaving any of the population alive is just laying the grounds for future rebellion.

Another tactic is to deliberately infect your problem cities with the plague. Just remove govenors/agents before. Its cheaper than having an extermination army nearby. Plus you dont lose the revenue or gain a repair bill.

That's a good option I shall have to try that. Can spy's/diplomats carry plaque from city to city or does it have to be an army unit?

Capital relocation may help with distance/corruption penalties. As there is no cost to moving your capital and you can do it as often as you like in a turn its an easy experiment to conduct

Can you really move capital without incurring any penalty?

I assumed there must be some undisclosed penalty otherwise one could do it every turn just to keep certain cities happy.

[Quillan]

There is no penalty to moving the capitol that I have seen, Didz, and I have shifted it as many as 5 times in one turn, testing out effects.

[Sleepy]

However, they don't solve the problem merely delay its onset and reduce its frequency. The only real solution is to achieve 0% growth at the right time in the cities development and thats a really difficult thing to achieve.

With only neccessay farm/Public health upgrades I can get the nile valley cities/Carthage/Greek/Roman cities to 20 -30K population, with zero growth and a PO >80%. In my Scippi campaign, my capital was Carthage and I could control the huge nile valley cities. It can be done.

That's a good option I shall have to try that. Can spy's/diplomats carry plaque from city to city or does it have to be an army unit?

Agents (Spies/Assassins/Diplomats) can infect a city. Note Admirals can catch it too, though they cant infect a city they can pass it on to any future passengers

[Oaty]

Whats the problem I wanted to be a pacifist when I started the game. I realized shortly in the middle of the campaign blood money is'nt so bad. Get enough revolts and the scmucks will destroy that unwanted farmland ......... huhuhuhuu huhhu uhhu uhhhuu hhuhu hhuuhh as beavis and butthead would say dumbasses. Do'nt repair anything until enough revolts have occurred that they are willing to destroy there own farmlands. When a farmland is damaged it can only be a functional building if repaired. So never repair it and laugh at them when they ask what have the Romans ever done for us.

So what have they done for us.................... nevermind just go watch the movie

[andrewt]

When does your population growth hit 0? I did most of the things I said and I have my public order 80% or above. You don't really need to reduce your population if you can maintain 80% public order or above with it.

Example:
Let's say I have a city that can grow to 30,000 before growth becomes 0 at normal taxes. At 30,000, it will have a 100% penalty on public order. It has the maximum distance penalty from my capital (80%). Low taxes would increase population growth by 0.5% but increase public order by 30%, with a net of 25%. Juno would increase public order net by 50%. Arenas will increase it by 15% with yearly games. Curia will increase it by 10%. Having arena and hippodrome have monthly games and races each will add a total of 40%. You'll only need around 20% public order and you can have it with a garrison of around 8 peasant units.

So:

Squalor penalty = -100%
Distance penalty = -80%

I'll counter with:

Low taxes = net 25%
Juno = 50%
Arenas = 15%
Curia = 10%
Monthly games and races = 40%
8 peasant units as garrison = 20%

You'll have 80 public order at this point and no rebellions.

[Didz]

When does your population growth hit 0?

Thats a good question.

As far as I can see its totally random, I can't see any logic as to when it happens or why it varies from one city to the next.

For example here is the list of growth rates for my cities with a population of 20K and over. I have set all these cities to Low Tax rate and noted the growth rate and populations as follows:

Syracuse 27K 1.5%
Tarentum 19K -0.5% (losing population)
Croton 31K 2%
Apollonia 26K 1%
Thermon 28K 1.5%
Larissa 26K 3%
Sparta 22K 0%
Kydonia 21k 0%
Pergamum 32K 2%
Halicarnassus 24K 4.5%
Rhodes 21k 0%
Sardis 31k 2.5%
Ancyra 28K 0%
Salamis 32k 1%
Sidon 28k 6%

So, as you can see there is a wide and apparently illogical variation between Sidon which is still growing at 6% per annum despite a population of over 28.000 and Tarentum which is struggling to maintain a population of 19K.

I have no idea what the difference is between these cities as they all have the same build patterns.

I did most of the things I said and I have my public order 80% or above. You don't really need to reduce your population if you can maintain 80% public order or above with it.

Unfortuantely, with cities like Sidon, Halicarnassus and Thermon the population grows to the point where all those public order measures just aren't enough and many of these cities are on their third extermination visit.

You'll only need around 20% public order and you can have it with a garrison of around 8 peasant units.

Is there something special about peasant units that I'm missing. Do peasant units have a special public order bonus?

[nokhor]

i am currently playing as carthage. what i've been doing recently is say i take over rome and it has a tech 3 port. i destroy the tech 3 port and replace it with a tech 1 carthy port. then when that is completed, i destroy their tech 3 stables and build a carthy tech 1 stable. it's very tedious in micromanaging and of course i lose the tech upgrades as i slowly remake the city into a completely carthahagnian city, but it seems to have slowed down the incidents of revolt. don't have any hard data to back it up though. this is of course in conjunction with replacing temples and civic buildings. eventually all buildings in a city will be rebuilt, and reupgraded by me. verrry tedious.

[Razor1952]

Capture Corinth for Zeus Wonder and use this province as an extermination place. It gives 40% loyalty initially but quickly degrading so you have to trash it every few turns or so. Just destroy any troop making buildings and don't repair the walls , then you have only peasants to kill to retake the place. Excellent for getting veteran troops as well.

[Oaty]

City growth will hit zero when the city can no longer sustain a larger population and its number 1 factor is farmland, Look at Patavium with a base farmland of 5.5 Then look at Segestica with a low base farmland of 2 I believe. That is why the population of Patavium skyrockets and Segestica stays steady and about the only way To get Segestica to a city is to improve its farmlands.

[Quillan]

Exactly. Every city has its own base fertility rating for the region. That determines the base population growth figure. Add in all positive and negative modifiers, and try to adjust. Some stagnate early. Some won't stagnate for a long long time. If you can manage to get the city to stop growing above 24K population and still have a good public order, you're set. Hell, even blow 24K population is fine, once you've built the Imperial Palace or equivalent.

[andrewt]

Thats a good question.

As far as I can see its totally random, I can't see any logic as to when it happens or why it varies from one city to the next.

For example here is the list of growth rates for my cities with a population of 20K and over. I have set all these cities to Low Tax rate and noted the growth rate and populations as follows:

Syracuse 27K 1.5%
Tarentum 19K -0.5% (losing population)
Croton 31K 2%
Apollonia 26K 1%
Thermon 28K 1.5%
Larissa 26K 3%
Sparta 22K 0%
Kydonia 21k 0%
Pergamum 32K 2%
Halicarnassus 24K 4.5%
Rhodes 21k 0%
Sardis 31k 2.5%
Ancyra 28K 0%
Salamis 32k 1%
Sidon 28k 6%

So, as you can see there is a wide and apparently illogical variation between Sidon which is still growing at 6% per annum despite a population of over 28.000 and Tarentum which is struggling to maintain a population of 19K.

I have no idea what the difference is between these cities as they all have the same build patterns.

Each city has a different base farming value and that accounts for most of the differences. Sidon, for example, has a base value of 3.5%. If it is trading with Alexandria, it is importing grain for another 3%. At the Imperial Palace level, you'll have 0.5% population growth and 5% public order loss due to squalor per 1500 population. From your numbers, it appears that Sidon has a total population growth of 15%. I'm guessing that that will be:

3.5% base
3% grain imports from Alexandria
2% farm improvements
1% market improvements
2% public health improvements
2.5% Juno pantheon
0.5% low tax
0.5% somewhere else, most likely the governor

Unfortuantely, with cities like Sidon, Halicarnassus and Thermon the population grows to the point where all those public order measures just aren't enough and many of these cities are on their third extermination visit.

Agreed. Sidon looks like it will grow to around 45000 before stopping and that's just painful. You'll have 125% public order penalty (150% really, but there is a 125% cap) from squalor at that point.

Is there something special about peasant units that I'm missing. Do peasant units have a special public order bonus?

Each individual soldier contributes to public order depending on the population of the city and the unit size setting of your game. Therother, another forum member, has come up with a formula I find to be accurate. Assuming you play on the default settings (large), public order due to garrison size is:

-2.8 + 701*total number of soldiers in garrison / population size

Peasants have one of the largest unit sizes and the cheapest maintenance costs so I find them ideal for garrison duty.

A suggestion I have for you is to move your capital around the vicinity of Rhodes or Athens. Moving it to Rhodes, Sidon will have a distance penalty of 25%. Its squalor penalty will max out at 125%. That's 150%. You can counter with:

Temple of Juno - 50%
Sewer line - 20%
Arena (base public order bonus) - 15%
Curia - 10%
Monthly games or races - 20%
Low tax - 30%
At least 4 peasant units - 5%

Hopefully, you'll have 80% public order at that time. The other problem places are not as bad as Sidon and will be closer to your capital so they'll be less of a worry.

Something you might consider is replacing your temples of Juno with temples of either Mars or Mercury. The public order bonus and the population bonus will offset but the reduced population will make your garrison more effective. Of course, do this only after an extermination and do it immediately after one.

Also, if somebody else controls Alexandria, you might want to consider declaring war or cancelling trade rights (not sure if you can do it with just cancelling trade rights). That will reduce Sidon's population growth by 3%.

[Quillan]

I can't find it in search, but didn't someone or therother during the investigation of squalor thread say that the public order penalty from squalor tops out at 120%?

[andrewt]

I found it. It's 125%. I edited my above post to take that into account.

[Didz]

Why isn't any of this information in the strategy guide?

I shelled out £12 on a useless book that tells me none of this information.

[therother]

Why isn't any of this information in the strategy guide?

That would spoil all our fun!

BTW, I've compiled a research links thread with all of my research and some from other Org members that I've found useful.

[Didz]

I think someone needs to start putting together the information that should have been included in the strategy guide.

Perhaps, 'The Unofficial and Useful Strategy Guide to Roman Totalwar'

[Didz]

Each city has a different base farming value and that accounts for most of the differences.

Where do I find a list of these base farming values?

Assuming that they vary from city to city and are fixed for every campaign.

[The_Emperor]

Part of the problem is that Memphis has grain exports as Trade goods.

Whenever you hold it the other nearby cities all get messive grain imports in the population growth under settlement details.

The key to managing Squallor is to keep the taxes as high as possible and to never build farms. Train up a massive peasant garisson and keep the taxes on High at least.

Next up you need massive amounts of happiness buildings and a massive garisson to keep order. Squallor will kill growth, but once you get a negative or zero growth rate it makes the people unhappy... So you need to pull out all the stops in supressing rebellion.

Once you get so much squallor that you have a negative growth rate and high taxes, chances are you'll get an outbreak of plague sooner or later. (whenever I have had high taxes and had squallor maxed out, with Law & Order under crontol, I have often got Plague sooner or later in the city)

Now Plague is your best buddy at solving your overcrowding issues without resorting to genocide... Send a spy in and get him infected and then train up a ship, and send him on board.

Now you have your very own plague ship that will always remain infected. Remember where it is and remember never to merge it with another fleet, or to transport anyone around in it. Whenever squallor gets too much to handle, get a spy infected by boarding the ship and then send him on to your squallor troubled settlement... The Plague will start to reduce the population (and a bit of your garisson so make sure you retrain).

[therother]

Where do I find a list of these base farming values?

Rome - Total War\Data\world\maps\base\descr_regions.txt

[therother]

I think someone needs to start putting together the information that should have been included in the strategy guide.

Well there are plans afoot, for the Economics/City Management side of the game at least, and there are a number of existing guides. That research links thread I mention above also has a section for guides.

[Sleepy]

To add there are a number of govenor VnVs that impact city growth. Most common is the Bad farmer line which reduces growth. There are also a few retinue members that have an impact.

Also the weather can change the growth rate over a region. On the trade scroll it tells you whether its a poor/average or excellant harvest. This impacts growth as well.

[Bob the Insane]

At present Very High Tax is about the only form of birth control available in the game.

I didn't think they taxed that!!!

Perhaps they think everyone will be to depressed and exahusted after working so hard to pay their taxes that there is no time or energy left for fun....

It is an odd bit of logic really... I suppose there could be an element of economic migration modeled in, so some of the additional population is not children but immigrants to the province/city and their numbers would be effected by the taxation levels...

[The_Emperor]

I didn't think they taxed that!!!

Perhaps they think everyone will be to depressed and exahusted after working so hard to pay their taxes that there is no time or energy left for fun....

I think its more due to the fact that once they finish paying their taxes they don't have enough money left to afford to bring up any kids... (all those toys and an extra mouth to feed and all that, kids are expensive) So they decide not to have any.

[Quillan]

I suppose there could be an element of economic migration modeled in, so some of the additional population is not children but immigrants to the province/city and their numbers would be effected by the taxation levels...

That's exactly how I interpreted it. The population growth figures represent factors that encourage or discourage people from living in that city. When taxes are high, when the city has plague, when there's a lot of crime and slums (squalor), people don't want to live there and move away. When food is plentiful, taxes are low, and the city is safe, people go there for an easier/better life than out in the countryside.

[flashbacck]

You're suppose to get a bonus for having any wonders. I believe this is currently broken (the effect only lasts a turn or two). If they fix it, that would make running large empires MUCH easier.

[andrewt]

Zeus is the only wonder that is supposed to give a permanent bonus. All the rest are supposed to give only a temporary bonus. Zeus is bugged at the moment, though.