Desperate need for birth control

[Oaty]

Whats the problem I wanted to be a pacifist when I started the game. I realized shortly in the middle of the campaign blood money is'nt so bad. Get enough revolts and the scmucks will destroy that unwanted farmland ......... huhuhuhuu huhhu uhhu uhhhuu hhuhu hhuuhh as beavis and butthead would say dumbasses. Do'nt repair anything until enough revolts have occurred that they are willing to destroy there own farmlands. When a farmland is damaged it can only be a functional building if repaired. So never repair it and laugh at them when they ask what have the Romans ever done for us.

So what have they done for us.................... nevermind just go watch the movie

[andrewt]

When does your population growth hit 0? I did most of the things I said and I have my public order 80% or above. You don't really need to reduce your population if you can maintain 80% public order or above with it.

Example:
Let's say I have a city that can grow to 30,000 before growth becomes 0 at normal taxes. At 30,000, it will have a 100% penalty on public order. It has the maximum distance penalty from my capital (80%). Low taxes would increase population growth by 0.5% but increase public order by 30%, with a net of 25%. Juno would increase public order net by 50%. Arenas will increase it by 15% with yearly games. Curia will increase it by 10%. Having arena and hippodrome have monthly games and races each will add a total of 40%. You'll only need around 20% public order and you can have it with a garrison of around 8 peasant units.

So:

Squalor penalty = -100%
Distance penalty = -80%

I'll counter with:

Low taxes = net 25%
Juno = 50%
Arenas = 15%
Curia = 10%
Monthly games and races = 40%
8 peasant units as garrison = 20%

You'll have 80 public order at this point and no rebellions.

[Didz]

When does your population growth hit 0?

Thats a good question.

As far as I can see its totally random, I can't see any logic as to when it happens or why it varies from one city to the next.

For example here is the list of growth rates for my cities with a population of 20K and over. I have set all these cities to Low Tax rate and noted the growth rate and populations as follows:

Syracuse 27K 1.5%
Tarentum 19K -0.5% (losing population)
Croton 31K 2%
Apollonia 26K 1%
Thermon 28K 1.5%
Larissa 26K 3%
Sparta 22K 0%
Kydonia 21k 0%
Pergamum 32K 2%
Halicarnassus 24K 4.5%
Rhodes 21k 0%
Sardis 31k 2.5%
Ancyra 28K 0%
Salamis 32k 1%
Sidon 28k 6%

So, as you can see there is a wide and apparently illogical variation between Sidon which is still growing at 6% per annum despite a population of over 28.000 and Tarentum which is struggling to maintain a population of 19K.

I have no idea what the difference is between these cities as they all have the same build patterns.

I did most of the things I said and I have my public order 80% or above. You don't really need to reduce your population if you can maintain 80% public order or above with it.

Unfortuantely, with cities like Sidon, Halicarnassus and Thermon the population grows to the point where all those public order measures just aren't enough and many of these cities are on their third extermination visit.

You'll only need around 20% public order and you can have it with a garrison of around 8 peasant units.

Is there something special about peasant units that I'm missing. Do peasant units have a special public order bonus?

[nokhor]

i am currently playing as carthage. what i've been doing recently is say i take over rome and it has a tech 3 port. i destroy the tech 3 port and replace it with a tech 1 carthy port. then when that is completed, i destroy their tech 3 stables and build a carthy tech 1 stable. it's very tedious in micromanaging and of course i lose the tech upgrades as i slowly remake the city into a completely carthahagnian city, but it seems to have slowed down the incidents of revolt. don't have any hard data to back it up though. this is of course in conjunction with replacing temples and civic buildings. eventually all buildings in a city will be rebuilt, and reupgraded by me. verrry tedious.

[Razor1952]

Capture Corinth for Zeus Wonder and use this province as an extermination place. It gives 40% loyalty initially but quickly degrading so you have to trash it every few turns or so. Just destroy any troop making buildings and don't repair the walls , then you have only peasants to kill to retake the place. Excellent for getting veteran troops as well.

[Oaty]

City growth will hit zero when the city can no longer sustain a larger population and its number 1 factor is farmland, Look at Patavium with a base farmland of 5.5 Then look at Segestica with a low base farmland of 2 I believe. That is why the population of Patavium skyrockets and Segestica stays steady and about the only way To get Segestica to a city is to improve its farmlands.

[Quillan]

Exactly. Every city has its own base fertility rating for the region. That determines the base population growth figure. Add in all positive and negative modifiers, and try to adjust. Some stagnate early. Some won't stagnate for a long long time. If you can manage to get the city to stop growing above 24K population and still have a good public order, you're set. Hell, even blow 24K population is fine, once you've built the Imperial Palace or equivalent.

[andrewt]

Thats a good question.

As far as I can see its totally random, I can't see any logic as to when it happens or why it varies from one city to the next.

For example here is the list of growth rates for my cities with a population of 20K and over. I have set all these cities to Low Tax rate and noted the growth rate and populations as follows:

Syracuse 27K 1.5%
Tarentum 19K -0.5% (losing population)
Croton 31K 2%
Apollonia 26K 1%
Thermon 28K 1.5%
Larissa 26K 3%
Sparta 22K 0%
Kydonia 21k 0%
Pergamum 32K 2%
Halicarnassus 24K 4.5%
Rhodes 21k 0%
Sardis 31k 2.5%
Ancyra 28K 0%
Salamis 32k 1%
Sidon 28k 6%

So, as you can see there is a wide and apparently illogical variation between Sidon which is still growing at 6% per annum despite a population of over 28.000 and Tarentum which is struggling to maintain a population of 19K.

I have no idea what the difference is between these cities as they all have the same build patterns.

Each city has a different base farming value and that accounts for most of the differences. Sidon, for example, has a base value of 3.5%. If it is trading with Alexandria, it is importing grain for another 3%. At the Imperial Palace level, you'll have 0.5% population growth and 5% public order loss due to squalor per 1500 population. From your numbers, it appears that Sidon has a total population growth of 15%. I'm guessing that that will be:

3.5% base
3% grain imports from Alexandria
2% farm improvements
1% market improvements
2% public health improvements
2.5% Juno pantheon
0.5% low tax
0.5% somewhere else, most likely the governor

Unfortuantely, with cities like Sidon, Halicarnassus and Thermon the population grows to the point where all those public order measures just aren't enough and many of these cities are on their third extermination visit.

Agreed. Sidon looks like it will grow to around 45000 before stopping and that's just painful. You'll have 125% public order penalty (150% really, but there is a 125% cap) from squalor at that point.

Is there something special about peasant units that I'm missing. Do peasant units have a special public order bonus?

Each individual soldier contributes to public order depending on the population of the city and the unit size setting of your game. Therother, another forum member, has come up with a formula I find to be accurate. Assuming you play on the default settings (large), public order due to garrison size is:

-2.8 + 701*total number of soldiers in garrison / population size

Peasants have one of the largest unit sizes and the cheapest maintenance costs so I find them ideal for garrison duty.

A suggestion I have for you is to move your capital around the vicinity of Rhodes or Athens. Moving it to Rhodes, Sidon will have a distance penalty of 25%. Its squalor penalty will max out at 125%. That's 150%. You can counter with:

Temple of Juno - 50%
Sewer line - 20%
Arena (base public order bonus) - 15%
Curia - 10%
Monthly games or races - 20%
Low tax - 30%
At least 4 peasant units - 5%

Hopefully, you'll have 80% public order at that time. The other problem places are not as bad as Sidon and will be closer to your capital so they'll be less of a worry.

Something you might consider is replacing your temples of Juno with temples of either Mars or Mercury. The public order bonus and the population bonus will offset but the reduced population will make your garrison more effective. Of course, do this only after an extermination and do it immediately after one.

Also, if somebody else controls Alexandria, you might want to consider declaring war or cancelling trade rights (not sure if you can do it with just cancelling trade rights). That will reduce Sidon's population growth by 3%.

[Quillan]

I can't find it in search, but didn't someone or therother during the investigation of squalor thread say that the public order penalty from squalor tops out at 120%?

[andrewt]

I found it. It's 125%. I edited my above post to take that into account.

[Didz]

Why isn't any of this information in the strategy guide?

I shelled out £12 on a useless book that tells me none of this information.

[Didz]

Each city has a different base farming value and that accounts for most of the differences.

Where do I find a list of these base farming values?

Assuming that they vary from city to city and are fixed for every campaign.

[therother]

Where do I find a list of these base farming values?

Rome - Total War\Data\world\maps\base\descr_regions.txt

[Didz]

From your numbers, it appears that Sidon has a total population growth of 15%. I'm guessing that that will be:

3.5% base
3% grain imports from Alexandria
2% farm improvements
1% market improvements
2% public health improvements
2.5% Juno pantheon
0.5% low tax
0.5% somewhere else, most likely the governor

Absolutely correct.

Well almost absolutely anyway?

The stats for Sidon are:

Population Growth 5.5%
made up of:

3.5% Base Farming
3.0% Farm Upgrades
4.0% Grain Imports
3.5% Health
1.0% Buildings (Curia)
_____
15.0% Potential Growth
less
9.5% Squalor
_____
5.5% Net Growth
====


Public Order is 90%
being:

30% Garrison
20% Law
40% Entertainment
05% Wonder
25% Population Boom (not quite sure how this works)
20% Games
35% Health
____
175% Positive
less
95% Squalor
80% Distance from Capital
10% Unrest
____
185% Negative
____
-10% NET leaving 90% Public Order

SO, reducing squalor has a direct impact upon growth but also reduces public disorder. I made the mistake of going for the public order benefit without considering the affect on birth rate.

Income is -2670
This is where I have a big issue with the way RTW present the information.

The impression given is that this city is running at a loss, but as we all know that isn't true. However, the way the game presents the information makes it really hard to determine the true facts and manage the city.

In fact these are as follows:

INCOME
0998 Farm Income
1205 Tax Income
2089/4345 Trade Income (I assume this is variable)
85/130 Administrative Income (Variable)
______
4367/6668 Gross Income

EXPENDITURE
1969/3007 Corruption Losses
400 Entertainment
_________
2369/3407 Gross Local Expenditure
========

So, Sidon is worth between 960 and 4299 income per turn to me in its current state. Assuming I am preparing the variables correctly not -2670 as reported.

It annoys me that I can't see these figures on the city detail panels as they are corrupted by pro-rata distribution of central expenditures on army and government adminstration.

As such the city finance figures are worthless as a source of player information. They simply don't tell me what I need to know, which is

How much revenue is this city contributing to my treasury.

[andrewt]

4% grain imports? If Sidon is trading with Alexandria, you'll get 1.5%. You'll get 3% if you also control Memphis (I'm sure) or are trading with whoever controls it (not sure). The only way I know of to get 4% is if you have a governor with a grain merchant in Sidon. Your governor is also probably responsible for farm upgrades being 3% as I think it can only be 2.5% without one. The 3.5% health is a combination of Juno and the sewer line.

I'm assuming you get 20% law and 10% unrest from your governor's V&Vs. If that's the case, you might want to remove your governor as he is contributing to growth but not to public order.

Population growth bonus is for any population growth above 3%. If your governor is contributing to growth, you'll lose it if you remove him. However, you'll also lose that bonus anyway once your population grows. For around the next 7500 population growth, you'll get hit by a double whammy. That bonus will go down and squalor will go up. You'll lose 10% public order for every 1500 growth until your population growth becomes 3%, then 5% public order for every 1500 thereafter.

With 5.5% population growth still left, you'll lose 55% (30% squalor since it caps at 125% and 25% population growth bonus) public order until growth stabilizes at 0%. That's in addition to losing some garrison bonuses because of the increased population. Low tax can net you 25% while moving to daily games can add another 10%. If you have a hippodrome, monthly or daily races will add another 20% or 30%. After that, you need to either increase garrison size or move your capital closer. From the looks of it, though, you can survive by moving to lower tax and have either games or races at monthly and the other at daily.

For finances, CA did say the blinking is a bug that will be fixed in the next patch. It's just confusing people. 6668 income and 3407 loss is the right number. That's 3461 you're making. Even after my suggested adding 1 monthly and 1 daily games and races, you'll still be making around 2661. Of course, you also need to compute the support costs of the garrison you need to keep the city pacified.

[Didz]

4% grain imports? If Sidon is trading with Alexandria, you'll get 1.5%. You'll get 3% if you also control Memphis (I'm sure) or are trading with whoever controls it (not sure). The only way I know of to get 4% is if you have a governor with a grain merchant in Sidon. Your governor is also probably responsible for farm upgrades being 3% as I think it can only be 2.5% without one. The 3.5% health is a combination of Juno and the sewer line.

Correct.

My Governor in Sidon is Servius Plinius an authoritarian, abstemious vanquisher. Which increases unrest by +2 & Law by +4.

But he does employ both a Grain merchant and an Overseer which increases grain imports and farm output. Perhaps, I should sack these people or transfer them to another city.

I'm assuming you get 20% law and 10% unrest from your governor's V&Vs. If that's the case, you might want to remove your governor as he is contributing to growth but not to public order.

No

Law contributes to public order but unrest negates part of the benefit. According to the stats Servius Plinius is contributing a net 10% benefit to maintaining public order.

Population growth bonus is for any population growth above 3%. If your governor is contributing to growth, you'll lose it if you remove him.

Its not Servius whose causing this but his staff. If I can transfer his Grain Merchant and Overseer it will cure the problem and I shall keep the 10% public order bonus.

However, you'll also lose that bonus anyway once your population grows. For around the next 7500 population growth, you'll get hit by a double whammy. That bonus will go down and squalor will go up. You'll lose 10% public order for every 1500 growth until your population growth becomes 3%, then 5% public order for every 1500 thereafter.

Ouch! haven't these Phoenician's heard of condoms?

With 5.5% population growth still left, you'll lose 55% (30% squalor since it caps at 125% and 25% population growth bonus) public order until growth stabilizes at 0%. That's in addition to losing some garrison bonuses because of the increased population. Low tax can net you 25% while moving to daily games can add another 10%. If you have a hippodrome, monthly or daily races will add another 20% or 30%. After that, you need to either increase garrison size or move your capital closer. From the looks of it, though, you can survive by moving to lower tax and have either games or races at monthly and the other at daily.

I might try moving my capital anyway as it gives a broader benefit if it is in the centre of my empire and I'm told there is no penalty for doing so. According to the map the most central city in my empire is Rhodes, so I might try moving my capital there and seeing what effect it has. As long as Syracuse and Lilybaeum don't get unmanageable it should improve the situation overall by reducing the public order penalties of all my cities.

For finances, CA did say the blinking is a bug that will be fixed in the next patch. It's just confusing people.

Ah! I wondered what the blinking was about, I just assumed it was a min/max thing.

I hope that in the patch CA remove the army and governor costs from the city reports too as I consider them to be very confusing. I can't really think why anyone would want to know how much a city is contributing towards army upkeep. Its actually irrelevant as far as I can see.

If I had a choice I would prefer to see the Civilisation approach used where army units are allocated to a home city that pays for their upkeep and gets upset when they leave on campaign. That created some interesting army management problems which are lacking in RTW. Having my Egyptian Legions financially and emotionally tied to the Eastern Provinces would give me a real headache, as it is I can ship them off to Sicilia without a thought.