CA: Forts, Forts, Forts, make em Cities, make em relevant

[ToranagaSama]

The following is in part an outgrowth of the Use Your Forts Properly thread:

Only a day or two ago, did I begin to comprehend just how Forts could be used, previously, I was thinking they had little value.

I was thinking to start a Thread on the subject, as IMO, Forts s/h some of the capabilites of Cities. Such as the ability to RETRAIN.

After a battle you want to Retrain your troops, but a Fort can't do it, if placed properly, the nearest city will be a couple of Turns away; AND, the nearest City may or may not be capable of FULLY re-training *all* of the your troops. It may or may not have a, Stables (or better); a Practice Ground (or better), an Armory (or better), etc.

So, the necessary City for *full* re-training, can be a few turns away. I want the Forts to capable of re-training; BUT making them so, leads to questions of how to best implement this, as Forts DON'T have *populations* to draw from.

One possible solutions, would be a requirement to populate the Fort with Peasants, from which Troops could be drawn; these Peasants could be re-Classed as *Replacements*. Originally, Trained as Peasants, but *mustered* as Replacements and sent to the Fort as raw troops to Trained *again* as Replacements. Such "Replacements" would have a double cost penalty (or, at least additional per unit costs), as there'd be original cost for Peasant/Replacements, and then the cost of Re-Training. Perhaps "Re-Training" at a Fort, might be MORE expensive than Re-training at Cities. Thoughts?

Or, in an alternative, there could simply be a unit class of training replacements with a commensurate costs. A class in addition to the existing peasant unit class.

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ALSO, I think Forts s/b capable of becoming Cities, as a natural course of development, just as they did in reality.

This could be tied to the size and length of stay of the Garrision. Meaning that a Garrison of some size would need to be in residence or *very* nearby to trigger the beginning of the Forts evolution into a City.

A couple of Town Watch wouldn't do it, but, say a half stack of troops or so, garrisoned at the Fort for, just guessing, 5-10 Turns could begin the Trigger. In this case, one alternative could be the creation of another new "Unit Class" of *Families*.

From the Cities a player could *train* Units of "Families" and send them to a Fort. Family *Units* sent to a Fort would automatically (??) *Disband* and begin to form the Fort's "Population". The Population would then formally begin the Fort's transformation into a Town/City.

Continuing the train of thought....

Families could be tied to Morale. Troops under the command of a General in *Command* of a Fort evolving into a City could receive a Moral boost tied to the Fort/Town. If the Fort falls the General and his troops would loose the Moral boost. Additionally, successfully evolving a Fort into a City would give an Influence boost to a General.

Benefits of successfully, establishing a city could then lead to reduced re-training costs, establishment of farming and trading, all those of established cities.

Slavery. This is a subject for another thread, so I won't go into my thoughts, except to say that the game should allow a Player direct Slaves to the Cities/Forts of his choice, rather than the present method. With this capability, then true CONQUERING can become an full aspect of the game. Taking Cities could have a whole new purpose and a new Win scenario created.

For example, and furthering my theme of evolving Fort Cities and leading to a relationship with Slavery, significantly defeating an enemey army *should* result in a number of slaves. A Fort's garrison would probably engage in many battles, and consequently, many slaves. Presently, this does not occur within the game, it should. Particularly, **Rebel** armies, defeated and captured, should be a PRIME source of Slaves.

Possibly, tied to a Fort's Garrison, and ONLY a Fort's Garrison, would be an adiditonal option when conquering an enemey City. The option to enslave the entire population of a City and sending it to and for the use of the Fort-City. These slaves would count toward the Fort-City's *Population* and/or separate Classifications could be created for *Population*. You know, Citizens, Slaves, and, possibly, sub-catagories of Farmers, Merchant/Traders, Military Recruits/Replacements, etc.

Actually, maybe this s/b the *True* function for the option of "Extermination".

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Well, anyway, the above obviously isn't completely worked out, BUT, I think aptly serves as a basis for Conception. The point being that "Forts* should have a larger and more significant role in the game. Giving them such, would alter the game significantly toward the better.

Highlighting:

1) Forts should serve as Defensive strongholds;
2) Forts should serve as the primary base for expansion.
3) Fort should evolve into Cities.
4) The process of evolving Forts into Cities should result into Garrisons of EXCEPTIONAL, Moral, Fatigue, etc.
Garrisons having suffered through the trials and tribulations of conquering a Territory s/b the *strongest* troops with the highest Moral, etc. and its primary loyalty would be to its General.
This is why *Rome* feared the likes of Ceaser, etc., and why the likes of Ceasar, etc., got the big heads, and marched on Rome.
5) City "Populations" s/b divided into Sub-Populations with new Unit Classes s/b created for "Replacements" and "Families", and possibly, Farmers, Traders, etc.
6) ???

Well, just some things I'd been thinking of recently, as well as some I just made up. :)

[Forgive the Typos, I gotta get back to playing the game, ....ahhhh, I mean work! :)]

~ToranagaSama

[ToranagaSama]

Hmm...just reading my own post. Possibly, a requirement for Replacements s/b some sort of building like a Recruiting/Mustering Station.

Regarding Forts/Cities and the Slavery "Win" scenario. A new Win scenario could be created, that is the establishment of a set number of Cities could be considered as a Win. A set number of Establishments in a Set number of Provinces, perhaps.

[Razor1952]

Some great ideas, but there would be a few caveats I can suggest to make it a bit more workable.

-There would have to be some limitation on fort positioning or a maximum of one fort able to go on to city status per province. This would promote an interesting peive of strategy to place your one fort properly both for economic(trade) and military reasons.
- This would make it easier to allocate peasants and income , though it reduces somewhat the possibilities for use of such forts.
- These uber forts would be tied to the success/failure both militarily and economically to their "fostering" city.

Unfortunately I think such an idea would be a major peice of modification , but perhaps an expansion by CA could do it. ( along with non abstracted naval battles..hint hint)

[Razor1952]

One other thing after reading the Birth control needed thread, perhaps excess population could be allocated to this fort, solving the birth control problem and the fort retraining thing.

[andrewt]

I don't really like the idea of being able to create new cities in a TW game. I think it belongs more to games like Civ3. The reason is that the game will become really tedious in the end. That and the first part of the game will be solely devoted to city building, which isn't a good thing for a TW-style game.

[Khorak]

Geez, just have the fort capable of retraining its own units using the population and buildings of the province its in. Unless you're in a hostile territory, in which case you should lose a hundred men each time you click on retrain simply for thinking that you should be able to completely rebuild your army whilst wandering about hostile lands.