Research: the best foot unit

[therother]

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[TinCow]

I have recently acquired Chosen Archer Warbands in large numbers in my Dacian campaign... and I am amazed at how good these things are. After examining their stats in more detail, I am wondering if perhaps they are the best foot unit in the game. They are probably the best foot archers out there (Long Range and a higher missile attack than even Creshian Archers) and their ability to actually engage in melee is massive.

10 Attack / 11 Defense / 5 Charge / 12 Missile

Compare this to:
Hastati - 7 Attack / 14 Defense / 2 Charge / 11 Missile
Principes - 7 Attack / 16 Defense / 2 Charge / 11 Missile
Triarii - 7 Attack / 17 Defense / 7 Charge
Early Legionary Cohort - 9 Attack / 17 Defense / 4 Charge / 13 Missile
Legionary Cohort - 9 Attack / 22 Defense / 4 Charge / 13 Missile

While all of these units have a higher defense, they will take significant casualties from the long-range Chosen Archer missiles well before they reach melee. Add to that the higher attack and charge than ALL of them (except Triarii charge) and Chosen Archers will kill faster as well. This doesn't even take into account the bonus for woods and snow (probably applied in a good 2/3 - 3/4 of the battles fought in Europe). Praetorian and Urban Cohorts have a high enough attack to probably beat them, but both of these units take two turns to produce.

So... essentially we have the best archer unit in the game which can also beat everything but the most elite Roman (and Greek) foot units in melee combat. Is there another unit that could possibly be more useful?

[edit]
Just noticed Pharoah's Bowmen, which beat Chosen Archers on Missile and Defense. However, they are weaker on attack and charge, they take two turns to train and their maintinance fee is almost twice as high. That raises another benefit of Chosen Archers, a relatively low upkeep fee. They essentially cost the same as Auxilia and Hastatii and are far cheaper than even the basic Early Legionary Cohort, let alone the very expensive elite units of the other factions.

[Slaists]

Well, there is one note on engaging missile types in melee: after shooting for a while they become quite tired. Being tired lowers their attack and defense considerably.

[Quillan]

Tin, check out the Gallic Forester Warband. They're even better. I'm not at home to doublecheck, but if I remember correctly, base stats are something like 11 melee, 7 charge, 15 missile, 3 armor, 5 defense skill, long range missiles, hide anywhere, excellent morale, all the usual archer stuff (flaming arrows, can sap, etc), and they don't suffer from the "may charge without orders" bit almost all barbarian units have.

[Zorlag]

Well, there is one note on engaging missile types in melee: after shooting for a while they become quite tired. Being tired lowers their attack and defense considerably.

That's true, but they will also have numerical advantage since they already peppered their enemies with multiple volleys of arrows (which are damn powerful too)... I think these units are pretty much ultimate all-arounders, only thing they miss is shield. Forester warbands are still better archers though.

Z.

[RZST]

lol, damnit thats why archers were getting pwnd XD. bastards

[TinCow]

Alright, so let's figure this out. Which 'melee foot archer' unit is the best? The three main candidates seem to be:

Chosen Archer Warband - Cost: 700/180 - 1 Turn Production
10 Attack / 11 Defense / 5 Charge / 12 Missile
Expert in Woods, Bonus in Woods & Snow, Good Morale, Good Stamina

Forester Warband - Cost: 960/200 - 2 Turn Production
11 Attack / 8 Defense / 8 Charge / 15 Missile
Hides Anywhere, Bonus in Woods & Snow, Excellent Morale, Good Stamina, Fast

Pharaoh's Bowmen - Cost: 680/330 - 2 Turn Production
9 Attack / 13 Defense / 4 Charge / 14 Missile
Bonus in Desert, Good Morale, Good Stamina, Can Sap

Forester Warband seems to be the winner on stats, but it has an increased cost and 2 turn production over the Chosen Archers. In addition, the Chosen Archers' extra defense might give them the edge in a ranged dual. So... opinions?

[Szun]

just to clear some things..defense is not adding to ranged defense..only shield and armour protects from missles, the defense value is only used in melee.
Beside the pure stats maybe you also count in the unitsizes..afaik the pharaos are 60/120/240 scaled while thje forester are 40/80/160..if i am correct remembering.

[Praylak]

Forester Warband seems to be the winner on stats, but it has an increased cost and 2 turn production over the Chosen Archers. In addition, the Chosen Archers' extra defense might give them the edge in a ranged dual. So... opinions?

I'll take the forester anyday. Had a few encounters with them, but I havent; used them as Gaul yet. I play on Medium difficulty, large unit size and here was my experience...

When I was playing Germania, I had two Chosen archers that approached a single unit of Forester for a typcial archer duel. It was level ground and good weather. There is no question in my mind that had it been one on one, the Foresters would have taken the day. Since my Chosen's were the ones approaching, the foresters did get off the first volley that initally killed 12 guys! Best first volley I ever seen. The Foresters did terrible casulties to my Chosens. Both my units were down to half strength by the time the last Forester fell. Even with the better armour, the higher missle attack of the Forester is deadly.

[Silver Rusher]

Alright, so let's figure this out. Which 'melee foot archer' unit is the best? The three main candidates seem to be:

Chosen Archer Warband - Cost: 700/180 - 1 Turn Production
10 Attack / 11 Defense / 5 Charge / 12 Missile
Expert in Woods, Bonus in Woods & Snow, Good Morale, Good Stamina

Forester Warband - Cost: 960/200 - 2 Turn Production
11 Attack / 8 Defense / 8 Charge / 15 Missile
Hides Anywhere, Bonus in Woods & Snow, Excellent Morale, Good Stamina, Fast

Pharaoh's Bowmen - Cost: 680/330 - 2 Turn Production
9 Attack / 13 Defense / 4 Charge / 14 Missile
Bonus in Desert, Good Morale, Good Stamina, Can Sap

Forester Warband seems to be the winner on stats, but it has an increased cost and 2 turn production over the Chosen Archers. In addition, the Chosen Archers' extra defense might give them the edge in a ranged dual. So... opinions?

Why not have Cretan archers in here also?

[Red Harvest]

Right now, "Good Stamina" means they all tire MORE rapidly...BUG.

One turn production for chosen archer warbands is probably the key factor. You can build far more of them... Otherwise I would pick the Forresters on stats + upkeep (I can keep more around than the Eggy unit.) If you need a unit with armour though to exchange missile volleys, the Eggy's get the nod.

[Oleander Ardens]

All three are incredibly good units which are kinda different:

The Forester is a fast-high attack archer while the Pharaoh's is a slower and better at taking hits, with the Chosen somewhat a mix between them with a weaker ranged attack.

Both the Forester and the Chosen can approfit of the +3 experience or +3 weapon bonus, while I'm not sure what the egyptian temples offer the Pharaoh's...

OA

[Red Harvest]

Anyone else get the feeling that these elite archer units are sort of like an MTW equivalent of chivalric men at arms and arbalesters all rolled into one?

[TinCow]

just to clear some things..defense is not adding to ranged defense..only shield and armour protects from missles, the defense value is only used in melee.
Beside the pure stats maybe you also count in the unitsizes..afaik the pharaos are 60/120/240 scaled while thje forester are 40/80/160..if i am correct remembering.

Any idea what the armor stats are on these guys? If appearances are anything to go by, the Foresters will be lower on it than the Chosen.

According to the Unit Guide, they all have the same number of men, that's why I didn't include that.

Why not have Cretan archers in here also?

Cretan Archers aren't built for melee at all and their missile attack is lower than all three of the ones I listed. Cretan Archers are pretty much just vanilla archers with perks. For reference purposes though:

Cretan Archers - Cost: 550/200
6 Attack / 5 Defense / 3 Charge / 11 Missile
Bonus in Woods, Vulnerable to Missiles, Good Stamina, Fast, Can Sap

[Quillan]

I don't have the temple list handy, but what temples do the Germans get? As Gaul, I've got Patavium with the Sacred Circle of Epona (+3 experience) and Weaponsmith (+1 heavy/light/missile/armor) cranking out Forester Warbands every other turn. Each one gets on a boat just outside Patavium, ships down to Ariminium, and upgrades at the Sacred Circle of Abnoba (+3 missile weapons). So, I'm getting Foresters with 3 higher melee/defense, 1 higher armor, and 6 higher missile as soon as they've finished production. The two turns plus one turn to retrain is a factor, but damn they cause casualties!

[sunsmountain]

Germans? Freyja (+15 happiness +15 growth). Donar (+15 happ, +2 xp), Woden (+15 happ +3 xp), with Donar being redundant.

The best war temple is the Mars temple of the Brutii. 3xp and 1morale probably beats 4 morale (+3 att +3 def +2 morale vs +8 morale). Though no in depth studies have been made yet.

In general, archers are quite powerful in this game. The enemy should engage the archers with as many units as possible if it is taking fire, unless they're in a city, when they should retreat to the town square and take up defensive position. The towers (level 3) are not worth defending because:
A. The human player will have onagers that take towers out
B. Running into towers without defense causes enough casualties as it is: adding an infantry/archer unit for extra defense doesn't cause more casualties due to arrow fire from the tower.
C. If a tower is defended, no player likes to fight on the walls because it costs casualties. But even if he did, the arrows stop firing once troops engage in hand to hand on the walls.

The main effect of towers is therefore OUTSIDE the walls, when the enemy are approaching and did not take them out using onagers.

So to sum up, CA made some errors of gaming judgement. They assume certain things are worth doing because they are in the game (ie they CAN be done). This is understandable, but leads to faulty AI choices which can, will be, and are exploited. Is there a time when the AI should defend its towers?
Is charging into enemy archers a good strategy every time?

See these questions are quite hard. But they should have an answer.

[Silver Rusher]

War temples between nations do not differ in the slightest. Just so you know.

[sunsmountain]

I was comparing a violence temple to a battle temple. Violence wins. So war temples do differ.

[Basileus]

Forrester war band is awesome and the best archer unit in my mind but the 2 turns you need to train them is what makes chosen archers a better unit, i would still chose forresters though :D

[Siris]

You cant forget, the Spartan warriors. I'd rather have them than these warbands, with my milita spear throwing calvery anyday.

[Zorn]

B. Running into towers without defense causes enough casualties as it is: adding an infantry/archer unit for extra defense doesn't cause more casualties due to arrow fire from the tower.

I don`t understand that.
you are talking about a stone wall, are you?

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Only trouble with 'dual role' troops (they would have been classed as proper skirmishers in MTW) is that they're up front at the start of the battle trying to get their arrows off. However, doing that means that they're also getting peppered (unless your playing single player AI who didn't bring any). Therefore, even though they have kewl dual-use capabilities, the enemy archers are killing your expensive troops, and your letting them! - so when they eventually get to melee they may already be under half strength.

[TinCow]

That's only true if the enemy archers outnumber you. Lately I've taken to packing 8-9 Chosen Archer Warbands in each of my Dacian armies. Any enemy archers that get within range drop to 30 men or less within moments, with minimal casualties on my side. I've been using the Archers to hold the front line... turned off skirmish and turned on guard. Shoot as much as possible until the enemy closes to melee. Let the archers absorb the melee hit and hold the enemy line, then charge Chosen Swordsmen through them into the enemy line and flank with any unengaged infantry/archers or cavalry.

The Chosen Archers can easily hold up long enough against full legionary cohorts that escaped the arrow barrage and keep them pinned while my flanks do their work. I'm almost praying I get assaulted in a captured Roman city... I would love to see my archers defending the walls. Pouring death onto the enemy and then slaughtering them if they scale the walls.

[Quillan]

While my Gauls were conquering Macedonia, I was besieged by the Macedonians right after I had captured Thessalonica from the. I sallied, put my 4 units of Foresters on the ramparts, and unloaded. Their entire army retreated from the field the casualties were so high. Those phalanx units were too slow to get out of archer range. They didn't even do the "sit under fire until destroyed" bit; they started pulling back immediately.

[Lord Ovaat]

Forrester war band is awesome and the best archer unit in my mind but the 2 turns you need to train them is what makes chosen archers a better unit, i would still chose forresters though :D

Totally unfair. It only takes one turn to produce an auxilia archer, though it does take two to produce Pharoah's Archers who have similar stats. That's why I went into the stat sheets and changed the "2" to a "1". Man it's tough goin' up against the Gauls, now.

[slackker]

well a well placed calvary charge and even war dogs make pretty quick waste of archers ;) and almost everything else

[Quillan]

You have to watch out for some of these elite archer units, Slackker. If they are in skirmish mode, they'll try and run, which is fine, but if they are not in skirmish mode, they can cause a surprising number of casualties. I've had the foresters stand up and beat a general with bodyguard in a melee slugfest. They took heavy casualties doing it, but they won.

[Herakleitos]

All three are incredibly good units which are kinda different:

The Forester is a fast-high attack archer while the Pharaoh's is a slower and better at taking hits, with the Chosen somewhat a mix between them with a weaker ranged attack.

Both the Forester and the Chosen can approfit of the +3 experience or +3 weapon bonus, while I'm not sure what the egyptian temples offer the Pharaoh's...

OA

Only the temple of Imhotep at the highest level gives Egyptians combat-bonus (+2 experience).

[Red Harvest]

You cant forget, the Spartan warriors. I'd rather have them than these warbands, with my milita spear throwing calvery anyday.

Those Spartans have low armour ratings, making them excellent pin cushions for high end archer units.

[Nelson]

Germans? Freyja (+15 happiness +15 growth). Donar (+15 happ, +2 xp), Woden (+15 happ +3 xp), with Donar being redundant.

If you want berserkers Donar isn't redundant. Woden gives you naked fanatics (and Gothic cav?). Freyja makes screaching women.

I recently began a campaign as the Germans and while I can't yet raise chosen archers they look to me to very good units. Rather like janisaries.