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Thread: Research: the best foot unit

  1. #31
    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    Those Spartans have low armour ratings, making them excellent pin cushions for high end archer units.
    he's in love with the greek cities ;)

    You get chosen archer warbands the earliest, too, dont' you?
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  2. #32
    Member Member dismal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    I'm playing Germania now. I took Alesia from the Gauls around 255 BC and they had already built the level 2 temple of Abdenola and the prereq building for Chosen Archers and a blacksmith upgrade or two.

    I can now crank out gold weapon CAWs, which are a very nice complement to German spears.

    The range is the key, since it keeps the enemies missile troops from taking free shots at the spear line. Also helpful to soften up those big stacks of Principes and Hastati.

    I would never think to use CAWs as melee troops except in an emergency, however. Not very cost effective.

  3. #33
    graduated non-expert Member jerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    archers are overpowered and nobody complaints! why? archers should suck and spears should rule! archers should not be armor piercing, spears should. arrows could NEVER pierce a shield, spear could practically always pierce the shield. This is messed up!

  4. #34
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerby
    archers are overpowered and nobody complaints! why? archers should suck and spears should rule! archers should not be armor piercing, spears should. arrows could NEVER pierce a shield, spear could practically always pierce the shield. This is messed up!
    I wouldn't say that nobody has complained that archers are overpowered... We have discussed this to death several times and it is obvious that most people find archers to be too strong (meaning a nerf would be accepted).
    Given hte fact that we play with rather small armies each unit has to be effective, and since CA couldn't reproduce the disruptioneffect more profoundly archers simply had to kill more... Too much we can agree.
    And spears weren't all that great at penetrating shields either, a onehanded spear is going to have hard time penetrating a typical non-wicker shield, and if it did penetrate it would do so slowly (it would go through but would need a further push to get at the man behind) and the other warrior would be able to avoid it. Now the spear would be stuck and your weapon useless... Not good since the enemy would now have the initiative. Yes his shield would be useless but what good does that do you if you are dead or mortally wounded?

    And arrows could never penetrate shields? Let me give you a little pointer... Carrhae. There the Roman legionaries found out that the Scythians could indeed penetrate the shields with their arrows so their had to layer them double.
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  5. #35
    graduated non-expert Member jerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    carrhae needn't have happend. read the lines.

    also the pilum as an example had a lot of mass focused at a small point-> lots of force on a small surface. and arrows wouldn't do much better against shields. according to discovery channel almost an entire line of units would go down on two salvo's of pila. roman infantry shields could barely deal with pila. Iron shields could not be too thick so they could have been penetrated, but not so easily as wood. leather would be ripped trough, but leather and iron would be a very tough mix.

    in rtw every cohort carry's two pila and kill with them at most 15 men--> 40x2=80
    it's not that good. archers on teh other hand kill less men in one salvo ( about 5) but have much more ammo. it's historic but unballanced.
    so you shouldn't make archer ammo less don't take it that way!
    in reality romans wouldn't have equipped their legions with 10 kg of pretty much useless equipment, as it is in rtw.

    and the last part, 'bout initiative. if the spear is stuck in the, the oppenent will not have the initiative-> you'l be standing 20 m away! I'm talking 'bout throwing spears here.

    got me on carrhae there, i'll give you that. weren't it the Persians btw? and if the persians had used spears in stead of arrows do you really think the romans had suffered less casualties?
    Last edited by jerby; 01-24-2005 at 18:33. Reason: extra info

  6. #36
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    I don't know why I wrote Scythians... It was of course the Parthians. Must have had a small stroke or something.

    You never said you talked about javelins (throwing spears), so naturally it seemed odd.

    Now to the point.
    There weren't a single iron shield back then, not even covered shields. The closest we come to that is the Aspis (better known as Hoplon) which was covered in bronze.
    The Roman Scutum was made of laminated wood, covered with either canvas or hide. Had it been covered with iron it would have been impossible to carry around in battle.
    The pilum was not the machinegun of the ancient era, it was 'merely' a superior heavy javelin with a better chance of killing an enemy or unbalancing the shield. At Pharsalus Caesar suffered very light losses against the superior pilathrowers in Pompey's army, something like 4-500 out of some 22000 (Pompey had 45000). Also the pilum had a short enough range that a unit could not throw all its pila in a single volley, rather the first few ranks had to do it. Then more pila would be thrown when the lines pulled apart (the lulls in battles), some were even thrown over the heads of those in front. So it would be a gradual attack rather than a withering hail of missiles.

    Now I intend to modify the game after the patch to have much less power of the archers and more to the javelineers (and possibly the pila). That has long been my goal.
    So I agree that javelins are woefully underpowered in the game, but I don't find the pilum to be that underpowered.
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  7. #37
    graduated non-expert Member jerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    started own topic in colluseum. seems a bit off topic in here.

  8. #38
    Member Member sunsmountain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    B. Running into towers without defense causes enough casualties as it is: adding an infantry/archer unit for extra defense doesn't cause more casualties due to arrow fire from the tower.
    Yeah i was talking about stone walls with the enemy on approach. Also getting a bit off-topic there.


    To get back to Chosen Archer Warbands, due to the primary/secondary attack bug, Pharaoh's Bowmen are the strongest. Together with the Good Stamina bug, no real tests can be performed until this game is properly patched.
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  9. #39

    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    I had the most difficulty with the Egyptian axmen. They seem to have advanced armor and weaponry early in the game. Also the legionary cohorts were pretty pesky. Once I got war elephants and I used them in combination of scythed chariots I was pretty immortal. It was like running over weeds with a lawn mower.
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  10. #40
    Member Member Claudius Maniacus Sextus's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    someone said he goes into iberia and get bonus +3misile attack from spanish temples.i say to him that dacia can go to macedon to take +4,+5 missile attack!

    the Chosen are beter for ONE reason:-They are built in 1 turn.
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  11. #41
    Member Member RollingWave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    In stratigic use wise Forester is probably best due to the ability to hide anywhere (if ur smart with the use anyway) and the high charge also helps a ton since u usually won't use archer as a melee line but rather as a last line rush.

    However Forester cost a ton and takes two turn AND takes quiet a while for the Gauls to aquire (I took out the Julies and the Senate by the time I got them XD....)

    I don't think that archers are overpowered.. rather that Javlins in general is under par (espically the pure javlin throwers) ... if anything the training/maintance cost of calvary is what's really over powered in the game... yes calvary were suppose to be very good, but they were also suppose to be very hard to train and maintain relative to infantry and also in RTW they melee a bit too well in most cases. (though hitting from horse back is definately strong due to height... should also make them a lot more prone to attack themself... espically in this age when there were no horse armor and horse gear weren't that perfected yet.)

  12. #42
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraxis
    I wouldn't say that nobody has complained that archers are overpowered... We have discussed this to death several times and it is obvious that most people find archers to be too strong (meaning a nerf would be accepted).
    Given hte fact that we play with rather small armies each unit has to be effective, and since CA couldn't reproduce the disruptioneffect more profoundly archers simply had to kill more... Too much we can agree.
    And spears weren't all that great at penetrating shields either, a onehanded spear is going to have hard time penetrating a typical non-wicker shield, and if it did penetrate it would do so slowly (it would go through but would need a further push to get at the man behind) and the other warrior would be able to avoid it. Now the spear would be stuck and your weapon useless... Not good since the enemy would now have the initiative. Yes his shield would be useless but what good does that do you if you are dead or mortally wounded?

    And arrows could never penetrate shields? Let me give you a little pointer... Carrhae. There the Roman legionaries found out that the Scythians could indeed penetrate the shields with their arrows so their had to layer them double.
    it were the Parthians at Carrhae

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  13. #43
    Humanist Senior Member A.Saturnus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    Chosen Archers are clearly not the best foot unit. At least not in a direct unit vs. unit comparison.

    I tested them against a vanilla cohort. European grasland, summer, AI used the Archers, which is admittedly a problem, best to test it MP, but I think it didn't too bad. Size was large.
    In a first trial I let the cohort walk to the archers. Not sure whether the AI made use of the full range, but it had quite a few volleys. During that, the cohort lost 9 legionairies. When the archers started to pull back, I let the cohort run after them. At the map edge it came to melee and the cohort naturally won. I didn't use pila because the archers would always pull back out of range. 63 men remained.
    In a second trial, I let the cohort run as soon as the archers began firing. The volleys only killed a single man. Again, at the map edge melee started which I won. 68 men survived. Not a big difference, but the number may be rather low because of unnatural behaviour of the cohort (they disengaged once).
    I tried then what happens if I use testudo formation. The AI didn't even try to fire at the testudo. Ending the fight was complicated because the testudo can't reach the archers and the AI didn't attack. I persued the archers across the map until my men were tired. Then the AI charged the testudo. I lost quite many men, 38, I think that happened not only because they were tired but also because I didn't disband testudo formation. I'll investigate that further. But I still won.
    Granted, testing anything against the AI is not very informative, but still, it seems obvious that any cohort will mob the floor with Chosen Archer Warband.

  14. #44
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    You can't let the AI have the archers and do a meaningful test. When I try this the AI usually runs them up to about 60 meters from my line, the stupidest thing it could do.

    When this thread came out was prior to 1.2 patch. In 1.2 units started receiving their shield bonus while marching. 1.0/1.1 were bugged in that they were not getting credit for their shields while moving. A +5 difference in missile defense will make a big difference in losses to archery.

    I won't defend chosen archers as being the best foot unit though.
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  15. #45
    Member Member cruix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    in comparing all archer units, one key statistic has so far failed to be studied. I am, of course, referring to their range. Have a significantly longer range (say 4 to 6 ranks) allows suppression fire and allows for control over concentration of fire (due to the higher probability of multiple overlapping firezones). I sware Cretean archers have the longest range; any evidence to the contrary is welcome. Also worth noting may be the rate of fire and how much ammo each archer type carriers. As far as I can tell ammo count is the same, but firing rates differ somwhat.

  16. #46
    Member Member sunsmountain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    Range is given in export_descr_unit.txt and is 170 for all 4 archers mentioned (pharaoh's, forester, chosen archer and creeesjaan aaarchers)

    In Melee all except the cretans are roughly equal (1.2), but, since range is equal, speed becomes the most important factor. Ie whether they're fast or not.
    Even cavalry (unless it is light) has trouble catching fast troops, in my experience.

    A second look:
    All have: LongRange, Flame (and 30 arrows/man)

    Chosen Archer Warband - Cost: 700/180 - 1 Turn Production
    10 Attack / 11 Defense / 5 Charge / 12 Missile
    Expert in Woods, Bonus in Woods & Snow, Good Morale, Good Stamina

    Forester Warband - Cost: 960/200 - 2 Turn Production
    11 Attack / 8 Defense / 8 Charge / 15 Missile
    Hides Anywhere, Bonus in Woods & Snow, Excellent Morale, Good Stamina, Fast

    Pharaoh's Bowmen - Cost: 680/330 - 2 Turn Production
    9 Attack / 13 Defense / 4 Charge / 14 Missile
    Bonus in Desert, Good Morale, Good Stamina, Can Sap

    Cretan Archers - Cost: 550/200 - mercs
    6 Attack / 5 Defense / 3 Charge / 11 Missile
    Bonus in Woods, Vulnerable to Missiles, Good Stamina, Fast, Can Sap


    Then clearly shows Forester Warband the winner!

    Not only do they hit with a missile attack of *Gasp* 15, they're also fast, they have the best morale, the highest attack and the highest charge value and can hide anywhere (!) well, they need long grass, but then again we all need grass... especially us dutch

    Remember, with a 50% or better unit production discount (due to ancillaries, traits), you get 2 year units built in 1 year as well.
    Last edited by sunsmountain; 07-10-2005 at 04:06.
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  17. #47

    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    Those Spartans have low armour ratings, making them excellent pin cushions for high end archer units.
    When you train them in a city with temples of Nike, you get improved veterans who are better able to with stand archer fire. Plus, when attacking archers, you can have them break up the falanx and just run at the archers. This only works when the archers are in front of the lines though.

    You can however dodge archer fire by breaking up the falax, losening the formation and having the Spartans run at the enemy formation only to fall back into a falanx when they've almost reached the enemy lines. It works well enough.

  18. #48

    Arrow Re: Research: the best foot unit

    I really like the forester warbands , but the one turn creation of the chosen archers does give them that advantage in men. In the time it takes one to build a unit of foresters, two chosens will have been built, and as been stated in a previous reply, two chosen archer units can take out a forester unit and still have men to spare.... so toss up a coin and pick one, but id go with the chosen archers for campaign, and foresters for MP.

    just my thoughts....

  19. #49
    Could be your God Member Abokasee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    Phalanks...i've even made a tacktic called "box form" simply place panklank all around ur general..no just..err i dont konw how say this nut they kick ass when u do it!!!!
    Now with transparent layers!

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  20. #50
    Member Member Afro Thunder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    What in Sam Hill is a panklank? Oh yeah, to beat your phalanx box, all I have to do is keep shooting with my forester warbands.
    Last edited by Afro Thunder; 07-18-2005 at 03:13.
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  21. #51

    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    I didn't see factored in the faction specific enhancements gained by religious buildings. Better weapons and exp upgrade change the stats on these dramatically.

  22. #52

    Angry Spanish Bull warriors O_o

    've tested many units against praetorian cohort and none or very few win against these elite roman troops, apart from spanish bull warriors (one of the most efficient? massive huge warriors with 2pvs & PA pilums ) and the most lethal chosen axemen from germany.

  23. #53
    Member Member swirly_the_toilet_fish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    Chosen Archers from a fresh install have 7 armour (chainmail vest) and 4 defense skill. Out of the three, they have the second best melee capabilities plus if you remain in northern europe, you have little to fear with their added bonuses in woods and snow.

    Egyptians fair a little better (14 missile/9 melee/7 armour/6 skill and 10 morale) but do have the drawback of time and penalties for snow and woods (both -2).

    Cretans have absolutely no armour and only 11 missile.

    Foresters have the highest missile attack rating (15) and also 11 melee. However, the battle modifier on their spear is less than 3/4 so it is ineffective against armoured infantry. Defense is poor (3 armour/5 skill) but they have the highest morale (12) and the best melee charge (8). In terms of engagement they can also hide "anywhere" and have the same bonuses as Chosen Archers.

    If you were to alter stats and give all arrows the armour piercing ability, the foresters would win hands down. They function more like longbowmen; lightly armoured, long range, powerful shots, and (if there wasn't a bug) would have the highest stamina amongst all of the tree with the best morale.

    I still prefer the foresters because of their hiding ability. Turning off skirmish and auto fire will allow you to wait for enemy units to be ambushed from behind while peppering them with the highest damage of all foot missile units.

    Since this decision is really all about personal taste(reminds me I must fix something to eat), no unit will be a definite clear-cut winner.

    However, I have seen Militia Hoplites make decent hell for Chosen Archers.

    ________________________________________________

    Ooo. Thought it was all about foot archers. Spanish Bull Warriors are effective against most other heavier infantry but do lack luster when pitted against heavy archers. Praetorians can hold their own against most top level units and Chosen Axemen (if given 2 hitpoints) can definitely hard head-strong into packs of archers, cavalry, infantry, elephants, siege weapons, nuclear missile silos, etc.
    Last edited by swirly_the_toilet_fish; 08-07-2005 at 07:09.
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  24. #54

    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    Now, I like archers. I even love archers. But they aren't invulnerable. One of the reasons that they work so well against the AI is because it usually creates mediocre units (you don't fight Chosen Archer Warbands with Axemen) and because, well, the AI's an idiot (Once, it tried to send Bowmen across a river and killed them all, leaving the enemy phalanxes pincushions for my Bedouin Archers).

    But as I said, archers aren't invulnerable, even elite units such as Chosen Archers and Forresters. Elite cavalry such as Cataphracts or Preatorian Cavalry can rip them apart in a single charge. And even if they survive the first charge, their morale usually plummets and they rout, making them perfect targets for cavalry. Even horse archers, especially Cataphract Archers, can use Cantabrian Circle to kill Chosen Archers with relatively few losses.

    Also, although elite archers can fight well in hand-to-hand combat, I find it frustrating to waste them and having to retrain, losing time, money, and experience, especially with non-replenishable mercenary units such as Cretan Archers. Archers are meant to stay behind the lines and shoot at enemies while heavier units such as Chosen Swordmen do their work. When they run out of arrows, quick archers do a great job killing routing infantry. But archers should only be made to force an enemy line as a last resort.

    Btw, Spartan Hoplites in loose formation will usually kill Chosen Archers, though at a steep cost.
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  25. #55
    Member Member sunsmountain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    The Spartan Hoplites have a low defense compared to other heavy infantry. The 2 hitpoints doesnt help enough against archer fire.

    I dont think the chosen archers are 2nd best in melee, the foresters are at least as good.

    The thing with both of them is that you need cavalry to kill them, for the simple fact that they outrun infantry, which is quite irritating considering they're firing long range.

    Archers are not the strongest unit in the game, but they're a force to be reckoned with.
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  26. #56

    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    Pila were still mostly stopped by shields. The real advantage the Pila had was that the bronze point would pierce the shield and even if the man was not injured by the point that bronze would bend under its own weight lodging it in the shield. Now the infantry had to either take off the shield and remove it or live with an extra few pounds weighing down that shield arm.

    Neither option was very atractive while more Pila are raining down on you.

  27. #57
    Member Member Edex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    Gameplay shows that pilas are really crashing weapon while defending. Just see what happens in defensive battle when you line your roman infantry (even hastati, no doubt about better units) on fire at will and wait for enemy infantry attacking - half of them is lost and retreated even without fight, holed by pilas

  28. #58

    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    Mmmmmm Janisaries :D

    Just checking, do Choosen archers have the very long range missles like cretans/Pharos/foresters?

    Also, Why can I not create new topics in the SP RTW section? :(
    Last edited by Seige_Engineer; 03-22-2006 at 16:35.

  29. #59
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: the best foot unit

    Welcome, Siege Engineer. I believe the Chosen archers do have a long range, yes.

    On the posting restrictions, they are because you have not yet been promoted from junior member to member. Have a look at this thread for more info:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43835

    I understand it can be frustrating, but stick around a while, make some posts in the frontroom or other open forums, and promotion will not take long.

  30. #60

    Default Re: Chosen Archer Warband - The Ultimate Foot Unit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maniacus Sextus
    someone said he goes into iberia and get bonus +3misile attack from spanish temples.i say to him that dacia can go to macedon to take +4,+5 missile attack!

    the Chosen are beter for ONE reason:-They are built in 1 turn.
    if it would me,i will choose Forester warband as the best foot archer(use them as muskeeteer)why?,coz they can hide anywhere(a flexible tactical unit),best use in ambush(infantry can't catch them,coz their fast moving;light cavalry can't take them down easily coz their high melee ability and spear)

    but if you want a foot archer that will win the war,i will suggest CAW,first:
    produce in 1 turn(like T-34 for Russia in WW2)
    180 denarii upkeep(but you get good morale that archer auxilia ain't got)
    7 armor compare to 3 armor of archer auxilia




    now i found out new attributes for comparison of three best foot archer unit,it is about their morale:
    Chosen archer warband=8
    Pharoah bowman =10
    Forester warband =12
    archer auxilia =4
    cretan archer =8
    Last edited by guineawolf; 05-18-2007 at 12:19.
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