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Thread: Research: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

  1. #31
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Well, pumping up defense +4 will have the effect of flatly reducing kill-rates across the board. Even for the phalanx it will be harder to kill the same charging cavalry. Pumping up spears' defense bonus against cavalry would be much more preferable in my opinion. In MTW spears got considerable bonus when defending against cavalry: i believe, due to higher attack values across all units types, the bonus (both: anti-cavalry attack and defense) is less pronounced in RTW. Also, note the new feature: mount mass factor when charging infantry... The introduction of it is a good thing, nonetheless, I feel, it works too well against phalanx... i.e., horse, having larger body mass, will "push the foot unit around" even when it does not kill it, resulting in loss of formation which, in the case of spears is especially deadly... Since this factor appears to be uniform (cavalry against foot - regardless whether they are spears or swords): I do not think it would be easy to introduce conditionality in this department (the mass factor stays the same versus sword types but gets reduced versus spears and even more reduced versus phalanx...). Dreaming more along these lines: the mass factor could change depending on whether the target unit's formation is already broken; whether it gets charged from the flanks/rear or from the front...

    p.s. as it stands now, it is ridiculous that macedonian cavalry with practically no defense but super high charge kills phalanxes in seconds in frontal attacks... the horses should evaporate in such suicide runs, but it's the phalanxes that disappear and rout...
    Last edited by Slaists; 11-05-2004 at 19:40.

  2. #32
    Member Member Mr Frost's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists
    ...
    p.s. as it stands now, it is ridiculous that macedonian cavalry with practically no defense but super high charge kills phalanxes in seconds in frontal attacks... the horses should evaporate in such suicide runs, but it's the phalanxes that disappear and rout...
    Strange , as the last time I fought the Macadons with Phalanx {playing Selucid} their Light Lancers {that I manipulated into charging my line of mostly Mercenary Hoplites} died and routed swiftly , though causing more casualities than they should have . I think I had my line deeper than usual {they had a lot of lancers , and I didn't want my line breeched} .

    Look here for a fix for the bionic horse problem {jumping the pikes frontally to engage so pikes are useless or even from the rear} and here for something I did with Triarii that seemed to make a difference against cavalry {simply upping the sword stats for phallanx would help to giving them a better chance against bionic horsemen} .
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  3. #33
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Facing Elephants in campaign

    i dont have 1.1 installed,
    (meaning i am facing the uber-ele's)

    i use flaming arrows against elephants (ALL types of Ele's)
    (i always take more archers than normal when facing elephants)
    (flaming arrows generate an extra morale penalty and supposedly extra damage)
    Ele's will often rout at or just before contact

    I found it takes more than twice as many volleys without flame to have the same effect and usually the ele's only routed once they got amongst infantry (meaning they got a morale penalty for enemies nearby)

    i make sure archers are 3 ranks or less
    (there is an accuracy penalty if archers are more than 3 ranks)
    (in MTW there was also an accuracy bonus for 2 ranks - not sure if that has carried over into RTW - but the "more than 3" rank penalty definately exists in RTW)

    i try to assign 2 or more archers to each enemy ele
    (this means my infantry have more than their fair share of work to do)
    (so have good infantry in your forces (or LOTS of captains with reserves))

    i will try to distract the ele's with a tough (high morale) infantry unit or with light anti-cav infantry and let the archers just keep peppering away at them.
    (Use your infantry's Charge Bonus - charge, then try to run "through" and charge again, often the ele unit will do the "run through" for you, giving you another Charge Bonus attack - it is wise to hit halt, or move the unit to reset the Charge Bonus, continuing an attack on a unit they are already enaged with will not trigger a Charge Bonus)

    Light infantry (Not velites/skirmishers) do the most damage to an ele unit in hand-to-hand (Triarii, Auxilla and Barbarian Warbands are effective)

    ALL types of Archers using flame do more ranged damage then Skirmishers.

    HOWEVER Armoured Elephants are tougher! (naturally)
    If you are facing Armoured Elephants and all you have are Roman Archers and Triarii - well you are in trouble...
    Luckily post Marius Auxilla Archers and Auxilla Spearmen can deal with Armoured Elephants.


    Most artillery is so innacurate that it is not worth the hassle against elephants, unless you have 2 or more onager units and you are assaulting a town with ele's defending
    (they get bunched up in the streets and one lucky shot can make all the difference)


    Elephants are not unbeatable, you just need the correct tactics.
    remember i am using 1.0, not 1.1.


    Beating them on the field we can do,
    BUT making them stay dead - thats a coding issue...

    Cheers,
    B.
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    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

  4. #34
    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Frost
    ..{BIG SNIP}...here for something I did with Triarii that seemed to make a difference against cavalry {simply upping the sword stats for phallanx would help to giving them a better chance against bionic horsemen} .
    Mr Frost,
    is a download avaiable for your changes to the Roman Units?
    I like what you have done to them,

    Cheers,
    B.
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    ask them, which leaf on the tree
    will be next to go.

  5. #35
    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Yeah!
    Please make a download!
    Triarii phalanx, the first thing that came to my mind after finishing the julii campaign....I just didnt know where to look....

    Anyway. Great changes
    Managing perceptions goes hand in hand with managing expectations - Masamune

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  6. #36
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    barocca,

    I haven't tried flaming arrows, since they are bugged. I leave them to the AI. I've used insane numbers of archers without causing damage as the pachyderms approached--eight units of archer auxilia against base elephants, they didn't rout until they started dying in melee.

    I haven't seen the accuracy penalties for archers with deeper ranks. Others have found that box formations work best for horse archers. However, I'm still accustomed to stringing out my archers into shallow lines from earlier TW games, so that is still what I do.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  7. #37
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    I finally settled on the following as the best compromise:

    Base/forest elephants: 5 hit points, armour 5, def. skill 7
    War elephants: 6 hit points, armour 7, def. skill 9
    Armoured elephants: 6 hit points, armour 9, def. skill 9

    To make them more durable vs. cav (and especially cav charges--which should not be allowed to be effective vs. elephants) I increased the mount effect to +8 vs. cav and horse (was +4). And I changed the cav/camel unit mount effects to -12 (was -8).

    An elephant unit can still barrel into the heart of an army and cause a mess and make a unit or two rout all by itself, but it won't last very long that way and will start taking casualties fairly soon.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  8. #38

    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    The other catch with elephants?

    I dunno if you can do this with the hex editing and stuff, but if only you could recruit additional archers for elephant towers within the campaign. The riders (archers) get killed, and as the Big S, having to ship a couple armoured elephants from Capua back to Antioch or Memphis really sucks when there are archers being trained in Capua and pretty much every other province.
    Let's Go State!

  9. #39
    Member Member Elmar Bijlsma's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    The problem with elephants is IMHO not that they can stand up to so much abuse but that there are so many of them.

    I like to have two units of elephants because if you send one unit in to follow the other it seems to give mutual morale support like regular units as they plow through the lines. However even with a modest two elephant units out of an 20 unit army then the amount of elephant are out of all proportion to the troops you bring along. Most armies of the day were hard pressed to have more then 40 elephants while fielding armies of tens of thousands.
    I can field nearly 4000 men and still get about that number of elephants. Meaning that the elephant units are scaled differently then the other troops.

    If you halve the number of elephants per unit they will receive a more concentrated missile bombardment leading to quicker deaths/panick/routs while still giving the impression these are beasts with thick hides . It also lessens the speed at which they cut through melee units which I think is overmodelled. And this way they don't get weakened versus melee because elephants are always outnumbered, the limit typically being how many troops can stand around an elephant, which ofcourse doesn't change.

    IMHO a neat fix which not only improves gameplay but is historicly accurate aswell.

  10. #40
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    I tried to reduce the unit size for elephants, it didn't work. The game wouldn't load with fewer. I didn't experiment a lot with that so perhaps there are magic numbers that make it work, or some switches that need to be checked.

    There are a number of issues and no single one (or two) fixes things. The lack of crew kills is a real problem, esp with the archer carrying types. Armour is too high (should be more defensive skill) and hit points are too high.

    Tonight I ran into a Carthaginian army with a single set of war elephants. It was a nicely balanced army, but I had a better, well balanced Scipii army. It was on "hard" not "very hard." With the war elephants it was a disaster--even with my modded cut down elephant stats. Without the elephants it would have been a straightforward win. I had fought many similar without war elephants in the same campaign, and I had even destroyed an a couple of elephant units earlier when I had a higher ratio of troops. The AI army mobbed in with the elephants and routed half my army in a few seconds. I hit them with Balearics as they came in, then attacked with two units of velites followed by samnite mercs and principes (all of these were heavily upgraded), and a unit of legionary cav when it routed the enemy cav on that flank. I managed to kill about a third of the pachys by using 1/3rd of my army just for them...

    The base level elephant mods look about right--very dangerous but vulnerable, but the other two are a bit too hardy. I'll have to knock a few points off their defense. I want them to be tougher than the forest elephants...but this is still too much.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  11. #41
    Member Member Elmar Bijlsma's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    I tried to reduce the unit size for elephants, it didn't work. The game wouldn't load with fewer. I didn't experiment a lot with that so perhaps there are magic numbers that make it work, or some switches that need to be checked.
    I haven't tried this since I will not chance the games inner workings till I have completed the campaigns of all major factions, so ignore if I start talking rubbish.
    Might it be that the number of elephant crew needs to drop proportion in relation to the elephants and both still need to be scale-able?

  12. #42
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    I've tried decreasing both proportionally, I've also tried cutting back just on the elephants, and just on the riders. It CTD's with less than six crew. With six crew and four elephants in the file, it loads up with a full complement of elephants instead (12 on "large".) It does however work with 7 each (giving 14 elephants on large.) So the minimum scaleable size is set in the EXE somehow or by some non-obvious switch. I've got an idea about the war elephants though using 12,4 setting instead of 18,6...I'll give it a try.

    Fire arrows are very effective on elephants. Funny, since little else will trouble an elephant and vanilla arrows are nearly useless against them.

    EDIT: I have tested the 12 crew,4 beast setting for the war elephants. IT WORKS! I get 8 beasts per unit on large. The limitation in the game must be the 6 crew, that's why it didn't work for the forest elephants.

    And I think I might be able to get it to work with the forest elephants by doubling the number of crew per beast, then reducing the number of beasts. I've seen them double up before after "healing."

    EDIT 2: I am now able to decrease the size of the forest elephant units with the trick above. I used 8 crew and 4 beasts (vs. 6,6 default.) This resulted in 8 elephants on the field with "large" unit size vs. 12 before. It also added an extra crewman levitating in the air about 8 inches over the elephant's back. I'm going to see if I can move him down and get him seated in the descr_mount.txt file. Note that he has a bow but he has no missile stats, so he can't fire.

    Next item of interest: I'm thinking of making the animals spook more easily by reducing their base morale from 8 down to 4. That is one area I have not explored. If I do this I might have to pump up their mount effects vs. cav again to offset the power of cav.
    Last edited by Red Harvest; 11-29-2004 at 01:42.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  13. #43
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Big Update on Reducing Elephant Unit Size:

    Ok, I've got it worked out now as to how to reduce the elephant unit size, and how to make it look decent. This is going to force me to do some new unit balancing, but it feels right from a game unit scaling approach.

    1. Reducing base elephant unit size For the "forest elephant" types with a single rider, you cannot reduce the crew below 6. However, you can double the number of riders per elephant and reduce the number of elephants accordingly. I chose a crew of 6, with 3 elephants (vs. default of 6 and 6 which is 12 and 12 on "large" unit size.) On large scale this modification results in 6 elephants with 12 crew. There is a graphical glitch which must be addressed and I will explain this in a moment.

    2. Reducing War Elephant and Armoured War Elephant unit size. These are easy, just reduce the number of men/elephants from 18/6 to something like 9/3.

    3. Fixing the graphics issue with the base elephants. The extra crewman on the forest elephants is standing above the elephant as if there were a platform. He also has a bow (but he can't use it without being given the appropriate stats.) Also, if this unit has the army captain on it, he will need to be repositioned. You can't make the extra crewman sit down, but you can put him on the back of the elephant so that he looks natural unless someone makes a close inspection. He will be sprouting from the back of the elephant at upper thigh level. With the leather bands across the back of the elephant this blends well. Add a rider to the "descr_mount.txt" file and relocate riders as follows in bold below:

    type elephant forest
    class elephant
    model elephant_forest
    radius 4.4
    x_radius 1.0
    height 2.5
    mass 10
    banner_height 0
    water_trail_effect elephant_water_trail
    root_node_height 1.8
    attack_delay 1
    dead_radius 2.5
    tusk_z 2.25
    tusk_radius 1.5
    riders 3
    rider_offset 0.0, 1.0, 0.75
    rider_offset 0.0, 0.15, 0.2
    rider_offset 0.0, 0.15, -0.2


    4. Balance issues have been discussed alot previously. My general suggestions at this time are to decrease armour but increase defensive skill to increase vulnerability to javelins and regular arrows. Also boost the elephant's bonus vs. horses both in the elephant stats and in the various unit mount effects (cav should be extremely ineffective vs. elephants.) Some hit point reduction for elephants is probably still in order, but if you reduce the unit size, the hit point change will need to be smaller. It might also be desirable to make the elephants more skittish in melee or under missile fire by reducing the base morale level from 8 to 4 or 6. Elephants should be powerful but brittle units able to cause decisive disruption in skilled hands, rather than just batter through everything in their path like robots.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  14. #44
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    With the changes you have already made, I think a moralechange isn't needed, or rather it might prove disaterous to the elephants.

    You have made the eles weaker against archery and other ranged weapons as well as weaking numbers and hitpoints. So to keep the eles effective one has to send them in to trample. No more fighting, just keep going until you reach the other side as the elephants will likely not be able to last long inside a big bunch of infantry. But that means the elephants will suffer from massive moralepenalties as they are flanked on both sides, possibly even surrounded by enemies at times (and here we are talking about units). That makes the lowered morale dangerous as you risk the eles routing every single time you charge them, not to say what will happen if one of them gets stuck and killed.
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  15. #45
    Actual Person Member Paul Peru's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    I don't think the morale needs to be lowered.
    In my experience getting them to rout or run amok is easy enough.
    Using HA, I can usually get rid of them without taking heavy losses.
    This has been the only solution in my Armenian campaign so far.

    Unit size reduction looks promising.
    This, along with some armour reduction and mount effects while maintaining cost seems about right to me.

    Yesterday I tried a custom battle: me all-pachy Cartman vs. AI with Gaul units of it's own choosing. I won narrowly. Several ele
    The point: the flaming arrows of the forrester warband actually downed one beast. The charred hulk looked rather foul-smelling.
    (vanilla 1.1 default settings)
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  16. #46
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Remember how the game uses elephants (and encourages their use by you): you charge them in with your cav and infantry right behind. You don't stand them there fighting, you just charge through. With unmodded base elephants I just send them back and forth through the enemy army until it is torn completely up, and there is nothing to stop it. The AI is quite good at this ( hey, I just praised the AI for something!) There is not a requirement to keep some separation from friendlies and no real penalty for following right on their heels. Historically, this was a bad idea since elephants can cause terrible disruption in your own men. Even running amok, my own elephants cause little problem in my armies so I just ignore them. When running amok they should be treated as having the attack values of an enemy (and horrible morale effects.)

    So the elephants don't suffer morale penalties from being isolated and unsupported, because there is a horde charging just behind them and with them. Unless they run into a pike phalanx frontally, this is the way to go.

    CA has done some odd things with the relative balance of units, but it is a challenge to fix. The best example is horses vs. elephants. With reduced stats, horses become a problem, hence my extensive mount modifier changes. One thing I've seen with the smaller elephant units is a loss of "mass" vs. cav. The elephant charge bogs down earlier and will halt vs. elite cav. Some of the loss of mass is good vs. infantry, but against cav, the horses should clear a lane.

    I'm not surprised horse archers could handle the elephants, the beasts will tire rapidly. That doesn't work against an infantry army. Well, it can if you have flaming arrow archers. But they weren't all that common in most armies of the day... The legions of the Roman Republic relied on the pointy stick approach, and that doesn't work in RTW. Javs are worthless although the skirmishers can do some harm, IF nobody else is around to charge into the skirmishers.

    Flaming arrows do really kill elephant morale, but they deserve a big asterisk for several reasons (buggy, plus the questionable bonuses the seem to give vs. infantry, etc., and why is this effect magnified tenfold for elephants?) Regular arrows do almost nothing. I've read that Scipio liked to use slingers vs. elephants and found them quite effective.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  17. #47
    graduated non-expert Member jerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    Those same arrows are armour piercing in the game...so they should penetrate the skin. It's not like an archer is going to miss very often when aiming for an elephant. I dozen arrows or so and the elephant is not likely to be of much use to its rider anymore (one very upset beast.) And that mahout should come down pretty fast from archery.
    arrows should not be armor piercing, the chance of getting back your arrows where small so you don't make arrows from good quality steal but from bad. and it is not armor piercing ( from a documentary on agincourt, but still pretty valid for this period imo)

    and against 'phants spears are more effective since its a lot more mass beiing hurled( plus the bonus peltasts get), thinking off it, spears should always do much more damage than arrows

    suggetion: make arrows non-armor piercing and spear armor piercing.

  18. #48
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    My statement about arrows being armour piercing was incorrect I believe. They don't have an AP trait listed for them. AP cuts armour rating by half. The confusion came from "piercing" in their stats, but it appears that is either not used (according to the text) or is for something else. At any rate, archer missile attack values are so high--particularly with any experience/weapons/temple upgrades, that they still tear up armoured units in a hurry.

    As for historical context. Heavy armour was mostly protected from penetration, although the Parthians apparently could penetrate plate with their better bows (Carrhae.) However, mail was quite vulnerable to arrows from what Goldsworth wrote in "The Complete Roman Army."
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  19. #49
    graduated non-expert Member jerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Carrhae needn't have happend, it says between the lines.
    I still think that if arrows ( in game) can pierce armor that spear need more bonuses. spear are underused. I dont see why I should train thureophoroi when I already have archers ( or cretans) IF thureophoroi ( esspecially) had more bonuses and attack I will be more likely to train a unit of thureophoroi than regular archers.

    sorry, quite of topic

  20. #50
    Member Member Mr Frost's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Quote Originally Posted by barocca
    Mr Frost,
    is a download avaiable for your changes to the Roman Units?
    I like what you have done to them,

    Cheers,
    B.
    Sorry , I didn't follow the thread after my post so I didn't see the request . I'll try to remember to upload it tommorrow .

    I made a balista alteration that oneshots elephants without unballancing balistas Vs anything else which is in the downloads section of TWC {in Mods subsection} called "Ballistas of Dumbo Slaying" that is appropo to the thread topic .



    Incase I forget to upload the Triarii Phalanx mod it is done thus :

    find the Triarii entry in export_descr_unit.txt in {in default installation} C:\Program Files\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data which looks like the following

    type roman triarii
    dictionary roman_triarii ; Triarii
    category infantry
    class spearmen
    voice_type Medium_1
    soldier roman_triarii, 40, 0, 1
    officer roman_early_centurion
    officer roman_early_standard
    mount_effect horse +4, chariot +4, camel +4
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
    formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 7, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 7, 5, 5, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 4
    stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
    stat_mental 10, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 500, 210, 50, 80, 500
    ownership romans julii,romans brutii,romans scipii,romans senate

    and change it thus {changes highlighted red}

    type roman triarii
    dictionary roman_triarii ; Triarii
    category infantry
    class spearmen
    voice_type Medium_1
    soldier roman_triarii, 40, 0, 1
    officer roman_early_centurion
    officer roman_early_standard
    mount_effect horse +4, chariot +4, camel +4
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
    formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, square, phalanx
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 8, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 15 ,0.75
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 9, 4, 5, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 4
    stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
    stat_mental 10, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 3, 500, 250, 50, 80, 500
    ownership romans julii,romans brutii,romans scipii,romans senate

    {don't worry about any other differeances , they're just my personal preferances}
    Then find descr_model_battle.txt and in the roman_triarii entry in {default installation} C:\Program Files\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data which should look like the following

    type roman_triarii
    skeleton fs_spearman ; combat spear
    indiv_range 40
    texture romans_julii, data/models_unit/textures/unit_roman_triarii_julii.tga
    texture romans_brutii, data/models_unit/textures/unit_roman_triarii_brutii.tga
    texture romans_scipii, data/models_unit/textures/unit_roman_triarii_scipii.tga
    texture romans_senate, data/models_unit/textures/unit_roman_triarii_senate.tga
    model_flexi_m data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_high.cas, 15
    model_flexi_m data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_med.cas, 30
    model_flexi_m data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_low.cas, 40
    model_flexi data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_lowest.cas, max
    model_sprite romans_senate, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_senate_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
    model_sprite romans_scipii, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_scipii_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
    model_sprite romans_brutii, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_brutii_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
    model_sprite romans_julii, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_julii_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
    model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

    and change it thus {changes highlighted red}

    type roman_triarii
    skeleton fs_spearman, fs_swordsman ; combat spear
    indiv_range 40
    texture romans_julii, data/models_unit/textures/unit_roman_triarii_julii.tga
    texture romans_brutii, data/models_unit/textures/unit_roman_triarii_brutii.tga
    texture romans_scipii, data/models_unit/textures/unit_roman_triarii_scipii.tga
    texture romans_senate, data/models_unit/textures/unit_roman_triarii_senate.tga
    model_flexi_m data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_high.cas, 15
    model_flexi_m data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_med.cas, 30
    model_flexi_m data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_low.cas, 40
    model_flexi data/models_unit/unit_roman_triarii_lowest.cas, max
    model_sprite romans_senate, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_senate_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
    model_sprite romans_scipii, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_scipii_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
    model_sprite romans_brutii, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_brutii_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
    model_sprite romans_julii, 60.0, data/sprites/romans_julii_roman_triarii_sprite.spr
    model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

    The commas are very neccessary as one might expect {the code seems to have a fettish for them ;p} .
    The decription still serves , but you could change that by adding to or altering the triarii entry in export_units.txt in {default} C:\Program Files\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data\text which looks like the following

    {roman_triarii} Triarii

    {roman_triarii_descr}
    Hardy\nDisciplined\nSapping Ability\n\nTriarii are tough heavy spearmen who make up the third and most senior part of a Roman Legion before the military Reforms of Gaius Marius. They carry a long "hoplite-style" spear (the hasta) which is used to thrust, a long shield and a gladius. They are the oldest veteran soldiers, and well armoured – hardly surprising, given that they are also drawn from the richest section of society. \n\nThe triarii are the last available line in early-pattern Republican Legions. "Going to the triarii" is a Roman saying meaning carrying on to the bitter end, and if they are used it’s a sign that the moment of decision in a battle has arrived. \n\nHistorically, triarii spent their own money on their equipment and could afford to buy the best of everything.

    {roman_triarii_descr_short}
    Triarii are tough, experienced spearmen who are the senior element - the backbone - of an early Roman Legion. They can be a decisive force in battle.

    To something like this {change in red}

    {roman_triarii} Triarii

    {roman_triarii_descr}
    Hardy\nDisciplined\nSapping Ability\n\nTriarii are tough heavy spearmen who make up the third and most senior part of a Roman Legion before the military Reforms of Gaius Marius. They carry a long "hoplite-style" spear (the hasta) which is used to thrust, a long shield and a gladius and fight in the same fashion as Greek Hoplites. They are the oldest veteran soldiers, and well armoured – hardly surprising, given that they are also drawn from the richest section of society. \n\nThe triarii are the last available line in early-pattern Republican Legions. "Going to the triarii" is a Roman saying meaning carrying on to the bitter end, and if they are used it’s a sign that the moment of decision in a battle has arrived. \n\nHistorically, triarii spent their own money on their equipment and could afford to buy the best of everything.

    {roman_triarii_descr_short}
    Triarii are tough, experienced spearmen who are the senior element - the backbone - of an early Roman Legion. They can be a decisive force in battle.





    For those whom might wish to mod this into their game I ofcourse say :
    Back up the files you are going to change before you change them ! .
    7 out of 10 people like me ,
    I'm not going to change for the other three .

  21. #51

    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    People, elephants are EASY to kill!

    Javelins take them down like nothing else. I always laugh when enemy brings elephants cause I know I can pwn them easily with a single velites unit!
    The Western wind carries with it the scent of triumph...

  22. #52
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: CA: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Turin
    People, elephants are EASY to kill!

    Javelins take them down like nothing else. I always laugh when enemy brings elephants cause I know I can pwn them easily with a single velites unit!
    You obviously didn't have much experience with them prior to 1.2. They are much better now, although the actual response to missile fire is still quite odd. If you play some of the historical battles the elephants can be a real eye opener. But the historical battles are all superhuman units anyway, not much fun.

    Side note (not for Turin)
    And what is that triarii mod post doing here?
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Research: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    do you think makeing elephants easier to kill is the best solution?

    I think the real problem is they are to lethal, even basic one man elephants can run threw the enemy formations causeing hundreds of casualties even before the enemy routes

    I think they should cause far fewer casualties, but still cause severe disruption, like when you give a run order repeatedly on the other side of the enemy line, so that the elephants run through, knock everything down, but they get back up again

    I think elephants should still be as hard, or near as hard to kill, but they should fling enemies in the air less often

    if more of what they trampled got back up again, then elephants would be more balanced, and still fun to use and watch

    P.S I dont know what Im talking about
    Last edited by Creeper525; 09-26-2005 at 22:35.

  24. #54

    Default Re: Research: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    I found that elephents are best killed with numdian calvery or A Armoured genreals unit with some hevay calvery and missle support. I have only lost one genreal this way and he was serverly weakened.
    When it occurs to a man that nature does not regard him as important and that she feels she would not maim the universe by disposing of him, he at first wishes to throw bricks at the temple, and he hates deeply the fact that there are no bricks and no temples
    -Stephen Crane

  25. #55
    Wrathchild Member GreatEmperor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    I think u can use flaming arrows best. It makes them go amok fast and so their troops are suffering high casualities.
    Veni Vidi Vici - Julius Caesar
    I came, I saw, I conquered - Jay Z
    I'd rather be the leader of a small Gallic village than be the second man of Rome - Julius Caesar.
    Quintili Vare, legiones redde - Caesar Augustus

  26. #56
    Member Member Saracen_Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    I doubt anyone will read this but im writing it anyways. Just wanted to say, they had Hannibal vs rome on discovery channel and according to that, scipio simply had his men step out of the way of the elephants. Thats because carthaginian elephants weren't that controllable. It was a big enough task just to get them to charge forward. he had his men jsut move becuase if you did try to fight them they were unstoppable. This makes sense. I mean jsut think about it, I dont care how long my spear is, I see a friggin elephant coming at me, Im gonna piss myself even if im the guy in the back row of a phalanx. Even if the spears do kill the elephant it could still fall on me or something.

  27. #57
    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Post Re: Research: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Polybius says that that at Zama, Scipio formed up his infantry in three lines as usual, but not in the quincunx or "checkerboard" formation. Instead of the Principes covering the gaps between the the Hastati, they were positioned directly behind the Hastati, and therefore directly in front of the Triarii. This means the Roman infantry was drawn up with very broad lanes between columns of Hastati, Principes, and Triarii. The velites were instructed to withdraw down these lanes when pressed.

    The idea was to channel the elephants down the lanes and off the battlefield. This tactic basically worked, though many elephants began to run wild into friendly troops as soon as the Carthaginian advance was sounded, and others ran off to the Carthaginian right.

    It's interesting to contrast this with Regulus' disposition at Tunis in the 1st Punic war. He chose to form up "many maniples deep". This didn't seem to stop the elephants and had the added disadvantage of decreasing his frontage, making his flanks easier to get at. He suffered encirclement and annihilation.

    It'd be interesting to see how these formations actually work in the game. In my experience the elephants don't "channel" very well.
    The truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it. - Mark Twain



  28. #58
    Sardonic Antipodean Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Atilius
    It'd be interesting to see how these formations actually work in the game. In my experience the elephants don't "channel" very well.
    They have reasonably success at "canalising" my ranks though. Damn elephants.
    Trithemius
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  29. #59
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen_Warrior
    I doubt anyone will read this but im writing it anyways. Just wanted to say, they had Hannibal vs rome on discovery channel and according to that, scipio simply had his men step out of the way of the elephants. Thats because carthaginian elephants weren't that controllable.
    Keep in mind that these were probably rather "raw" trained elephants too. Hannibal had a scratch force at Zama.

    Channeling was a good method, similar to what was done vs. scythed chariots.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  30. #60
    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Post Re: Research: Elephants, Healing, and Multiple Hit Points

    On the subject of Regulus and the battle of Tunis (and elephants), I neglected to mention the following: Regulus was captured after the battle. One of many legends concerning Regulus has it that he was later executed by being "trampled to death by an enraged elephant". Most likely a fiction but certainly fitting.
    The truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it. - Mark Twain



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