Archers, TryHigh, Hills

[Servius]

Last night I finally fought a battle in which there was actually a decent hill in a corner of the map, and it's shape was such that I was mostly able to create a shield wall, mapedge to mapedge, with my 8 Hastati, lining up my 4 Archers behind, and my cav on the flanks.

This was my preferred defensive formation in MTW. Spear wall/bunker, archer cannons firing at longer range due to height, protected behind the spear wall, cav in the back/flank to fly out and flank nme infantry who got caught up on my spear wall.

Observations from last night's battle...

1) Though the slope of the hill I was on was around a 45 degree down angle, my archer's range was hardly increased at all. I kept looking at the map, seeing how close the nme units were, and thinking "Why the hell aren't my archers firing yet!?" I don't have hard numbers, just a sense that the range advantage given for height has been reduced or is broken in RTW.

2) Once my archers finally did engage the nme, they shot THROUGH my Hastati, like in a straight line. My Hastati were maybe3 yards infront of my archers, but since they were lower on the hill, they were below eye-level of the archers. So the Archers actually fired DOWN, THROUGH the Hastati, to hit the nme units. WTF ever happened to arching the shots UP, which provided the longer range AND helped cut down on shooting your own guys in the back.

Before I realized this was happening, I looked at my Hastati and units of 80 men were down to 20+ men. This is absolutely outrageous.

3) The sole saving grace was that, for some reason, though I had lost around 70% of my Hastati due to being shot in the back by my own archers, I only suffered like 20 casualties. When the battle ended and I was back on the Strat Map, the 80 man Hastati units were only decimated (lost 10%). Maybe my gen had a doctor ancilary, and that guy some how was able to bandage up the hundreds of poor Hastati with Roman arrows in their backs...

I know CA hardly ever posts here, but has only read anything here or on the .com forums that says something like "CA is aware of this, agrees that it is a problem and should not be happening, and will fix it in an upcoming patch."? Personally, I don't mind waiting for a patch, I'd just really like to know that CA is aware of this, acknowledges it, and is committed to fixing it.

[TinCow]

I have done this type of defensive formation before with success even when not on a hill. There are two key elements to getting it to work. First, have your infantry a decent amount infront of the archers. I would say keep enough room to allow a full 6-ranks of men to fit between them. Second, manually target units that are not engaged with your defensive line. If you shoot at the units attacking your wall, you will hit your men in the back. Instead, shoot at incoming units and any that are sitting behind the main enemy line. As soon as your target unit starts approaching your lines, switch to a new one. If no targets are available, stop all firing until units rout and you can hit them in the back as they retreat.

[Bob the Insane]

This has been brought up previously... For the FF archer thing, personally I like it as it is now as you have to be very careful with positioning your troops with regards to your missile units (slingers are even more dangerous to have behind your troops as they have a lower arc anyway...)..

There is a definate issue with the archers not recognising friendly units though... In MTW archer set to Fire at Will would not fire at an enemy unit if they would hit your troops, they would if you ordered it but would not do so by themselves. This appears to be missing...

As for the height and range thing I have not seen this, but if true it really sucks... I suppose a good test is whether archers get a range bonus when they are on a stone wall....

[Red Harvest]

The archer trajectories seem a bit flat at times to me, introducing friendly fire at times when you expect the archers to shoot over the heads of your men. I've seen some odd stuff on steep inclines. I was disappointed to find a horse archer unit of mine got very little range increase, while the elite archer unit of the enemy on low ground was pegging my elevated infantry from long range!

I dislike archery in RTW compared to MTW:
1. As Bob the Insane mentioned, fire-at-will is reversed in its FF effects, and that is an immersion killer.
2. Command delay makes no sense for archers...they are releasing volleys after being ordered to stop and taken off fire-at-will. Ceasefire should be darned simple to order...especially when the enemy units are all dead...yet they are STILL firing.
3. Flaming arrows seem silly (overused) and cause serious frame rate issues that require file hacking.
4. Height, cover, and weather effects seem very muted.
5. There is not much attenuation of effectiveness with range.
6. Too many elite archer/missile units with long range and high missile attack values result in archery being overpowered for the era.

EDIT to add:
7. RTW does not require proper archer formations and in fact discourages long thin lines. Big step backwards from STW/MTW

[Satyr]

Overpowered is being a little nice. I am at the point where I can fight a relatively even battle and not lose a single soldier except for those lost to friendly fire. Just put lots of archers or slingers out in front of your troops and protect them with your own cav and you can't lose. It is getting to the point that I don't even bother bringing melee troops to the battles unless I have to capture walls. If you can bring lots of cav archers then it is even easier. The AI is incapable of defending against archers and gets badly broken up and is then suseptible to flanking and routing. I have fought some battles where I never make contact with the enemy as they all die to archer fire. This is pretty ridiculous!

I am starting to make Iron Man rules so that I don't abuse the AI this way, but I am weak of mind and succumb too often.

[Red Harvest]

I am starting to make Iron Man rules so that I don't abuse the AI this way, but I am weak of mind and succumb too often.

What you need is ELEPHANTS! Yes, why only abuse missile troops when you can also be abusing pachyderms!

[Servius]

yeah, the archers were on F@W, the Hastati were maybe two ranks ahead of the archers (was fine in MTW), and none of the nme targets were engaged with my line, so that wasn't the cause.

My Hastati were in front and below my archers, but my archers chose to shoot in a straight line, THROUGH my Hastati to hit the enemy. This trajectory reduced the range of my archers and caused massive FF casualties. It's just plain dumb.

On a sidenote, seeing as how the animation of our units actually effects their speed, I've observed that the vast majority of the arrows fired by my archers are over-shot. I see probably 60%+ of the arrrows bury themselves in the ground BEHIND their target. I'm starting to believe this is why my archers don't kill as effectively as I'm used to. If it was an experience issue, I would assume they would miss to the sides and undershoot too. Because it's so consistently a problem of overshooting, I think it's a bug, but of course that's just speculation.

[Zild]

Sounds like it could be that they are firing at where the units are when they loose the arrows, not where the units will be when the land... That said, if the trajectory is straight but the arrows miss targets, it makes sense that they would impact towards the rear of the unit.

But yes, friendly fire in particular seems to need work.

[Siris]

Yes, I have noticied this myself. While on a typical battle field vs. the Bruti Romans in my Spartan homelands, after firing upon them with many archers & horse javaliens, they'll encounter my phalanx & commence the battle. By then their typically all broken up, and my Armoured Hoplite phalanx formation is more than a match for them. So after about two minutes of actuall battle, the Romans ran, as usual.

So by then my javelin throwing light calvery has used up all of their javelins, and pull out these small swords. I send then in to flank the routing troops, I spare no one. But this battle I still had archers with arrow's, so I switched them to flame (which I just recently discovered how to do), and was shooting their men in the backs. The Romans also had some Hoplite mercinaries, so they were walking while routing, with my phalanx formation about five meters behind them.

I watched as 15-40 of my men were burned alive by my own archers. But it does make it more real though, & I support the current way that it is. I gave my phalanx the hand halt, and let the arrows fly, while sending forward my light calvery to do their business as usual *they had been mowing down Roman Hastati & other units of theirs which run faster* and used them to attack the mercinary Hoplites. I lost about 10 horses to my own archer fire still, but in the end I guess its worth it & its more realistic.

[Servius]

just fyi, they overshoot even when both targets are completely stationary. Now again, all I can tell is the graphics. The vast majority of the arrows overshoot the target. I mean, it could be a graphical bug, where the arrows are killing the men but their graphics are screwed up and show the arrows missing, or it's a real bug, causing most of the arrows to overshoot and NOT kill the target.

[Slaists]

just fyi, they overshoot even when both targets are completely stationary. Now again, all I can tell is the graphics. The vast majority of the arrows overshoot the target. I mean, it could be a graphical bug, where the arrows are killing the men but their graphics are screwed up and show the arrows missing, or it's a real bug, causing most of the arrows to overshoot and NOT kill the target.

It's not only the archers: javelin units overshoot as well... Just look at your hastati throwing their pila...

[Slaists]

T
7. RTW does not require proper archer formations and in fact discourages long thin lines. Big step backwards from STW/MTW

I whole-heartedly agree! In my opinion, another step-back from MTW is the fact that in RTW missile units (if left on auto-fire) shoot at routers... It is funny to see whole units (sometimes multiple at the same time) to waste their amo at some poor AI soldier trying to run off the map. Funny, as long as that load does not kill my general chasing the router....

[Praylak]

I remember my first instance with friendly fire, something I always carefully watch for now. I too also allow a good 8 ranks of men between my front line and missle units and this has for the most part resolved my issues as long as I micromanage them. I'll group my missle units so that I can ceasefire and reaim them and I give myself ample time before the front lines clash. Seems like "fire at will" has a new meaning like, fire no matter what.

Ballistas (I love them) are micromanage units as well. Its really tricky setting them up so they have some cover support, but don't kill friendlys in the process. I don't even bother with Onagers. If enemy troops are close by I just shut them down. Fire at will issues combined with crazy accuracy of fire-pots is a disaster waiting to happpen.

[Servius]

having to place your archers 8 ranks behind your infantry is silly and unrealistic. It also decreasing the amount of time approaching nme infantry are within range before they hit the wall. CA needs to fix the trajectory of the firing solution so that these idiots arch their shots more, and they need to stop firing by default if FF is a likely occurence, unless specifically ordered to do so.

[Blodrast]

I'm afraid that realism as a motivation is completely out of question.
It's not realistic for archer units to fire at a few scattered routing soldiers when the bulk of the enemy's army is advancing upon them.
It's not realistic for archer units to shoot their own troops in the back on purpose; sure, accidents do happen, and occasionally there should be losses to FF, but certainly not as many as there currently are ! As you guys pointed out, it was just fine in MTW when they wouldn't shoot on their own if they risked killing friendlies, but they would obey your order if you explicitly told them to. _That_ is more realistic, not drunken archers shooting at whatever is in front of them regardless of colours...

And what's up with those trajectories anyway ? I can accept more friendly casualties from slingers, but unless the enemy is literally up your ass, arrows should always go _waaay_ up, not in a straight line...