Map Size Poll

[Ranika]

After much waiting for this to finally work (technical difficulties be damned), and a brief exchange with Dead Moroz, I'm launching this poll to see exactly how large of a map we're looking at. In aformentioned exchange, the map being aimed for will be stretched northward enough to include the area of modern day Scotland, and out further into the east to include the area of modern day Afghanistan.

I, for one, think that's quite extensive enough for what we intend to do, but I'm sure we're all interested in seeing what everyone has to say. Remember that with a larger map comes more options for territories, which we all seem to like, but also a slew of issues, including proper names, borders, factional control, and a number of technical issues.

Also, and I know this is common sense, but just want to make a point of it, please make reasonable requests. Small expansions in any direction are perfectly legitimate, I believe, but, let's not start saying how we should include all of Africa or Asia, be realistic. And, of course, not just those extremes, but even lesser extremes. If we wish to give a more realistic portrayal of the ancient world, and want to expand the edges of the screen, we must realize that there has to be a cut off. I'm aware, from an old discussion in another thread (in fact, it may have been another board), came the question raised of adding India, or a portion of it, and with it, an Indian faction. That may be concievable, but think first. Is it reasonable, is it within the patience of our map maker to deal with any issues that would arise from expanding the map in X direction by so much distance, and so on.

I don't want to sound nagging, just asking all of us, to please be mindful of limitation, and realize there has to be set, reasonable boundaries, and we need to be careful to not set them too wide. That said, please vote, and share any ideas on how to EXPAND the map here, and maybe some basic information about provinces and the like, but try and keep those more as justification for expansion, we already have a thread covering the campaign map in general, and once we decide upon how large of a map we want, then we can go on our lengthy tirades about why a province should be named X, and why the city should be Y, and why the borders should be placed as one desires them to be.

To a new point, I'm fairly certain of expansion north and east will be occuring, but, I wouldn't qoute me on that, that is, of course, at the will of our mapper, who I hope comes to a speedy solution for any issues that may arise.

[sharrukin]

We should expand it to include the greater part of the persian empire. Doing so should create a tiny corner in the S.E. that could be India. The Alexander the Great fans would certainly be happy and a mod to that effect would show up rather quickly. And those of us who want to be the Persians and kick his sorry butt all the way back to Macedonia would also be thrilled!

Not important enough to vote in this poll, but thats what I think.

[Ranika]

Taking my own advice, I'd now like to justify my claims for expanding the map north. I believe that the Pictones and Caledonians deserve a proper inclusion. I'd hope for two or three new provinces out of this expansion, in addition to other provinces to be added in Britain (but not to the Britons, please keep in mind). CA stops the map at the Caledonians, but why? Because the real Romans couldn't conquer them? It's a game, and we deserve our chance, as any faction, to face the northern enemy that the Romans did not stop. The Romans gave many names to the people of the north, and the Britons themselves native name for their own island was Ynis Prydain; Ynis, being Island, and Prydain, or Pryten, the Briton name for the Picts, a P-Celtic spelling of the Q-Celtic Irish name 'Cruithe'. The word Pryten itself is the basis for the word Briton. There influence alone should bare including the Picts lands, if not a faction. The native people of Ireland, before Celtic immigration from Iberia and Gaul, were likely related to the Picts. Both are described, outside of legend, and within the basis of history, as being short people with black hair, who used elaborate designs on their bodies.

Tribes most specifically named by Romans are the Pritani, Caledonii (more than likely actually Celto-Pict, or purely Briton in many places, as the Celtic Britons did inhabit the southern part of the land the Romans called Caledonia), Dalcaydones (possibly very early British-Gaels from Ireland, as some are described as being significantly taller and broader than their more likely Pict associates), and numerous others. I'm aware the earliest reference to these people by name is in 297 AD, where they are listed as enemies of Rome, alongside the Hiberni (Irish), Scotii (Scots), and Saxones (Saxons). However, if we are to include Britain at all, why not all of it? If one can truly subdue Britain long before the Romans actually did, they should have the chance to press north and conquer the Caledonians and Picts.

Later, I'll articulate why I think eastern expansion is important, as well.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

North (just the necessary to including all of Great Britan) and East (just necessary to include all of Persia - eastern most frontier: Indus river).

[Dead Moroz]

As a person advanced in editing RTW map have to say that expanding the map is the VERY BIG technical problem. It causes numerous graphical bugs, most of wich are very hard or even impossible to fix. Of course, it's you can play on buggy map if just want to have more room and the stability of gameplay isn't important for you.
If you ask me what is the cause of all this problems I say... I'll say! The problem is that we do not have Campaign Map Editor. I guess this program is something very illegal. Maybe this editor is not what supposed to be "the high modability" of RTW.

Back to the poll. I'd like to vote for expanding both north and east. North - to include all Britain. No comments, I hope, 'cause Roman-Pictish conflicts are well known. East - till the eastern borders of Parthia (modern Afghanistan) to proper depict this faction. I'm not sure about Northern India - it's really too far.

Gentleman! Until we have Campaign Editor from CA (if we will ever have it), please, be realistic in your desires. We can do what we want with provinces in current map, and it will be absolutely "bug free". But if we expand the map no one can guarantee the stability of your gameplay. Do you have not enough bugs in RTW now? So be sober-minded.

[Ranika]

I've heard only expanding east and south cause the graphical distortions, have you played with that any? Just test with expanding the map north a bit, or west a bit, and see if you get the same bugs? I don't know if that'd help either way, to be honest, even if it is true, that we can expand north, bug free, but not south or east.

[Dead Moroz]

I've heard only expanding east and south cause the graphical distortions, have you played with that any? Just test with expanding the map north a bit, or west a bit, and see if you get the same bugs? I don't know if that'd help either way, to be honest, even if it is true, that we can expand north, bug free, but not south or east.

Damn, Ranika! Did you read what I wrote to you in PM?
OK, once more. When you change (even a pixel!) something in map_heights.tga (this is a file required to generate map) it will cause bugs no matter if you expand the map (in any directions) or not. You can not create new map without editing this file (game will just crash). The more you change this file (the more new lands you create) the more bugs it produce.

What's wrong in this file? Nothing. It contains data about heights of different places of map. The problem is that this file was generated by special programm... or was perfectly fitted for RTW map by CA's designers (I don't belive in it, but if it's true - these people are just patterns of fortitude). When you manually change this file you confuse some pixels and the heights data become corrupted and it cause bugs.

[Ranika]

Right right, apologies. I did read it, but I'm generally pretty tired when I manage to get on here to post, so I can get absent minded. Sorry.

[Dead Moroz]

Right right, apologies. I did read it, but I'm generally pretty tired when I manage to get on here to post, so I can get absent minded. Sorry.

No problem.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

As a person advanced in editing RTW map have to say that expanding the map is the VERY BIG technical problem. It causes numerous graphical bugs, most of wich are very hard or even impossible to fix. Of course, it's you can play on buggy map if just want to have more room and the stability of gameplay isn't important for you.
If you ask me what is the cause of all this problems I say... I'll say! The problem is that we do not have Campaign Map Editor. I guess this program is something very illegal. Maybe this editor is not what supposed to be "the high modability" of RTW.

I shall not pose features over stability EVER. I never thought that would be such a big problem.

Gentleman! Until we have Campaign Editor from CA (if we will ever have it), please, be realistic in your desires. We can do what we want with provinces in current map, and it will be absolutely "bug free". But if we expand the map no one can guarantee the stability of your gameplay. Do you have not enough bugs in RTW now? So be sober-minded.

I will be...

The Campaign Map won't be extended until the Campaign Editor is released or until some STABLE solution is implemented. Only then we'll expand the map.

You can still vote and discuss it though.

[Colovion]

Man it should be easy to make new portions of map - as well as simple to make new battlefield maps. Kind of like the way you would make a Sim City map - just larger.

I can't wait until those tools are released...

[Stormy]

When the tools are released I will like to see some new land also.

Sweet mercy I want it all! the north adding more of Scotland and Scandinavia to the east adding more of the Baltics and Russia - Iran - Central Asia ( Bactria ).. what the hell India and all of Arabia and down to Nubia I know I'm a greedy person

[Steppe Merc]

I say expand it north and east, but east primarily (since I only care about Parthia and Scythia any way. )

[Crazed Rabbit]

North and East, I say! Mainly because of the Picts and Parthians. So, you could expand it to Scotland, maybe some of Scandinavia, and central Asia, say around Alexander's conquests.

Of course, this would leave you with a large corner of the Russian steppe that might be unihabited and barren...

Unfortunately, this is all academic right now...

I mean, wth was CA thinking?!?! "Oh, all they will want to mod is the skins for units. They won't want to add more than 30 factions, more than 300 units, or add models, change models, or change the campaign map even a tiny little bit, or make a mod without the senate. And just to make sure, we'll make it very hard and tedious to do any of these things and not give any support whatsoever."?!?!?!

Not that I'm blaming the individual employees, for we all know that the god G'Nitekram is cruel and heartless, not to mention moronic...

Most moddable of the series-if all you want to do is change the colors!!
/rant

Crazed Rabbit

[King Yngvar]

Well the poll is closed but I would vote: "Expanded north enough to include all of Great Britain." so to get Scandinavia as well on the map

[Dead Moroz]

That's the map I'm working on now:


Sure it's enough for north. But do you think it should be expanded east till India?

Small example:


The only problem on map now is coastline.



But some weird glitches may appear on battle map.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

That's the map I'm working on now:

Great work!!

Sure it's enough for north. But do you think it should be expanded east till India?

At least until we get a good representation of Persia. No need to show any part of India. Just the surroundings (before Indus).

The only problem on map now is coastline.

Weird!! Why does that happen?

But some weird glitches may appear on battle map.

That is really weird!!! How can it be solved?

[eadingas]

Interesting. I haven't yet checked my expanded map for battlefield view... I wonder what glitches will I have :)
My guess is there's something wrong with your heights map. Check rgb values for places with glitche, maybe they're off by a bit...

[eadingas]

Hey Dead Moroz!!
Your pm box is full, so i post it here:

I have it confirmed. It's the heights map. Here's the proof:
Before



After editing map_heights.tga:



Pay attention to heights and roughness maps! They're more important than it may seem.

[Ranika]

I think that's expanded enough east. Parthia won't have to be some tiny fringe country. While I'd like to see it east to the Indus, this will do excellently, I think. How many provinces will we be able to have? I'd like to see the Scottish province divided in two in later updates, as well as Hibernia, but once the more important provinces are in place (such as a further divided Britain, Germania, Gaul, and Iberia).

[Dead Moroz]

Weird!! Why does that happen?

I managed to almost fix this problem. Now there are only very small asperities seen in close view. From "the bird's-eye view" all looks perfect.

That is really weird!!! How can it be solved?

Think it's fixable. Need to proper adjust map_roughness.tga.

When I finish the map I will need help of testers to see if there any glitches remains. Who want to participate?

[Dead Moroz]

Hey Dead Moroz!!
Your pm box is full, so i post it here:

I have it confirmed. It's the heights map. Here's the proof:
Before



After editing map_heights.tga:



Pay attention to heights and roughness maps! They're more important than it may seem.

I have the same experience. My coastline looks much more better now. But it seems that the biggest thing we can do with these glitches is to make them very small, almost invisible. They are not disappears completely. The coastline looks ok on south - south-west - west - north-west sides, but there are small asperities on north - north-east - east - south-east sides. From your pic I noticed that you have the same problem. So far I don't know how to fix it.

[Ranika]

This is wonderful news then. And Dead Moroz, what is the city in Scotland going to be? And how many total provinces will we be able to have?

I understand it isn't the elimination of error, but, the errors are nearly infintesimal, and that's great.

[eadingas]

BTW, how is the new map working with Radar Map? I noticed that there may be problems with it. I'm afraid if we expand it any further, some areas will not be available via Radar Map, and you'll have to move there manually by scrolling...not to mention you'll loose quick track of what's going on at the edges of your Empire...

[Dead Moroz]

This is wonderful news then. And Dead Moroz, what is the city in Scotland going to be?

"Test 1" I need the proper name. And many other things too. I'll make separate post about it soon (when finish the map).

And how many total provinces will we be able to have?

200

I understand it isn't the elimination of error, but, the errors are nearly infintesimal, and that's great.

Yes.

[Dead Moroz]

BTW, how is the new map working with Radar Map? I noticed that there may be problems with it. I'm afraid if we expand it any further, some areas will not be available via Radar Map, and you'll have to move there manually by scrolling...not to mention you'll loose quick track of what's going on at the edges of your Empire...

If I understood right the game changes the size of your map to fit it into Radar Map window. So it may look disproportional.

[eadingas]

Hmm, that's not how I experience things... My radar map simply moved north and west - so now I can't see western and southern edges of the map. Do you see all of spain on your radar?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I think that's expanded enough east. Parthia won't have to be some tiny fringe country. While I'd like to see it east to the Indus, this will do excellently, I think. How many provinces will we be able to have? I'd like to see the Scottish province divided in two in later updates, as well as Hibernia, but once the more important provinces are in place (such as a further divided Britain, Germania, Gaul, and Iberia).

IIRC, about 200 provinces can be in the game. No problem for Hibernia.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

When I finish the map I will need help of testers to see if there any glitches remains. Who want to participate?

Who doesn't?

I think everyone in the gameplay testing group will want to test it...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Do you see all of spain on your radar?

Sorry. Not Spain. Iberia...