Senate missions - negotiating a protectorate

[bubbanator]

I have found protectorates to be a nusiance for that very reason. They ally with the people you are planning on killing! I don't usualy take protectorates just because they hold me back, slow down my empire. The only time that I might take one is if I am playing as a faction with a slow starting economy and the jump-start that they give will speed up my military growth. After that, I just forget about them and continue with my plans. If this means killing them or their allies then so be it. I would rather have their cities to build me more troops than for them to be giving me a few hundred denarii per turn.

[sunsmountain]

Some things I don't understand about the protectorate status. As the Scipii I managed to get the last Spanish city to surrender to me. Next turn I got like $200,000 added into my coffers which I quickly used up in constructions to avoid the 50,000 thingy. Now I only get like 400 - 800 Denaris from them. What dictates the amount of money they have to pay to you?

I am not even sure if you're supposed to get money from them at all, except their faction's treasury of course (if they have one).

This is one for Guy (hatcat) to answer though.... we're clueless

Another bad thing is that their allied to the last nations that are still standing, (The non-roman nations of course), I think there should be a command which you can use to tell them to break off their alliances.

you can't send a diplomat to them and "break alliance", and you can't order one of your stacks to lay siege to one of their cities? I find that hard to believe.

Besides, those (3 max) regions already count as conquered. Why conquer them at all?

[gws226]

hmmmmmm....

first thanks for everyone posting their thoughts on this matter. I've encountered my first "make protectorate" issue from the senate.

Selucdia...... 1 territory left, decent army.

I have them surround, 4 huge armies sitting infront of their capital, port blockaded. and my best diplomate negociating...... 6 U's I think.

I've tried offering different combos to get them to bite..... but no love.

cash/map info/ their old territories back etc etc... no luck.

I've gone from one extreme to the other.... I just tried offering 10,000 per turn for 1000 turns, map info, and 38 territories to see if they would bite.... nothing.

is this senate mission a lost cause? I was thinking of sending in an army to soften them up, then withdrawing before I win the battle to weaken the forces a bit, but that seems almost as unrealistic as offering them 10,000,000 + 28 terrotires.

Advice appreciated

[rs2k2]

bah, if you cant get them to accept, kill them off and the senate will deem ur mission irrelevant or something along those lines

[Ciaran]

you can't send a diplomat to them and "break alliance", and you can't order one of your stacks to lay siege to one of their cities? I find that hard to believe.

Besides, those (3 max) regions already count as conquered. Why conquer them at all?

No, you can´t, which is a damned shame. You know, even Master of Magic, that really ancient game had that option, and it´s diplomacy was way less complex than Rome´s.
And another thing I noticed, playing with non-Romans for the first time: While I was playing the Romans, it didn´t matter whether a faction I had made my protectorate had alliances with one I wanted to go to war with, I got told I broke my alliance with my protectorate, but on the diplomacy screen it was still mine, as were the regions. Now, playing with the Seleucids, I got into the same situation, I wanted to go to war with Dacia, which was allied to my protectorates Parthia and Thrace, I got the same message (broken alliance and all) but this time, I really lost my protectorates

[bubbanator]

No, you can´t, which is a damned shame. You know, even Master of Magic, that really ancient game had that option, and it´s diplomacy was way less complex than Rome´s.

Actualy, you can cancel alliances. In the diplomacy screen just hit, 'cancel alliance' and then hit the 'inform ally of changes' button that is right next to the 'give as a gift' button.

I know because I use it all the time. I just cancel an alliance and then attack them with several armies that I had built up in advance. Works like a charm...

Not sure about your other problem though, your protectorates should turn against you if you attack someone that they are allied with. That is one of the many reasons that I avoid them at all costs unless I am in desperate need. They usualy just backstab you anyways. Usualy I just crush the faction and take their land.

If I do actualy take them as my protectorate, I just forget about them and treat them as I would any other neutral faction. If they are in my way, I just take their land and finish them off. If I want their land I take it. They get no special treatment.

It is easier just to take their cities and finish them off than to let them rebuild and attack you again later...

[Ciaran]

I know I can cancel my own alliances, what I´m talking about is getting one faction to cancel its alliance with a third party.

[Kralizec]

In my last RTR campaign as the Romans, I launched a suprise blitzkrieg attack on Carthage and took Carthago and another big city nearby. Lilybaum plus the Sardinian and Corsican islands were already taken from them in a previous war.
In my negotiations I eventually offered them back Carthago and the other African city, plus 9000 cash and demanded them to become a protecorate. To my surprise they accepted. I then got like +11 provinces on the faction screen. They were apparently running in debt at first because I got no tribute, but later on they started getting their finances sorted and gave me about 3700 denarii each turn.

Having Carthage as a protectorate rather then just conquering all of it is handy because they'll rule those provinces for you. Some of their provinces are very far away from your capital and are of a different culture so will be hard to keep, and even harder to make them churn out a profit. Turning them into a protectorate brings me closer to the 50 provinces mark and assures that a get a nice profit from them too

Now I'm playing with the thought of sending something like 3 stacks of troops by navy to the Seleucids or Ptolemies (Egyptians) and turn them into a protectorate the same way...well, maybe after I finished those insolent Macedonians who just attacked me

[JeromeGrasdyke]

Strijder has hit the nail on the head as far as the underlying reasoning for Protectorates is concerned. It's inherently more efficient in terms of overall cash generation and military resource usage because of reduced corruption and better public order in distant provinces... although you may not always see a net tribute surplus appear on your balance sheet, because that's highly dependent on the protectorate faction's own spending.

The key factors which determine whether a faction will accept a protectorate are:
* do you have territory which borders his (there must be at least one region-to-region border)
* superior overall faction vs faction military strength
* superior production capability (a combination of more settlements and a minimum amount of money)
* impending threat (enough force inside its provinces or in neighbouring provinces which you own)

Hopefully that clarifies matters a little. Engaging in sieges does not add to the decision and may cause the Protectorate to fail immediately when it's accepted (a substantial chance). As far as Tribute is concerned, each turn a Protectorate faction pays you in tribute the complete contents of its treasury above a certain maintenance amount for garrison armies and slow-but-steady city improvement. And yes, this means that small, rich nations are quite desireable as Protectorates...

[dismal]

Thanks, this the stuff it's great to know and is hard to figure out.

[SomeNick]

Thankyou for this HatCat and Jerome.

I have read many topics on this but they always seemed to lack the grit so to speak, due to not knowing all the factors.

Strategy games are funny. All of this makes sense, like having a large army sitting in the province etc when wheeling and dealing with another faction, which seems obvious, but unfortunately for me treating the Ai as Ai and not intuitively as RTW seems to have a bit of, I have blundered a lot!

Cheers ,

[Kralizec]

My biggest beef with protectorates is that when you attack a faction wich is allied to your protectorate, the protectorate will fall. Very annoying.
Of course I can pound my former protecotrate into submission again and make them a protectorate again, but then I will ceasefire with the faction I declared war on earlier!
Personally I think that since I am the protectorate's master and because they exist only at my whim, I should have the last say in their diplomacy. Meaning, that if I chose to declare war on one of its allies, they will let that faction down and stick with me.

[gardibolt]

I don't know about that. They're not your robots or your slaves. They are still their own people, unconquered. When you attack their friends, how do you think they ought to react? It seems natural to me that they would reject your protectorateship in that circustance. Why would they put up with that? They are paying you after all, and would see this as you using their own money to betray their friends. I'd be ticked off in their position too.

[Arcanum]

I don't know about that. They're not your robots or your slaves. They are still their own people, unconquered. When you attack their friends, how do you think they ought to react? It seems natural to me that they would reject your protectorateship in that circustance. Why would they put up with that? They are paying you after all, and would see this as you using their own money to betray their friends. I'd be ticked off in their position too.

In the case of Rome, protectorates were actually their slaves. If I understand the meaning of protectorate translated in german correctly, the protectorates in the old times were actually puppets, not allowed to do anything without asking their masters.

[Brutal DLX]

The key factors which determine whether a faction will accept a protectorate are:
* do you have territory which borders his (there must be at least one region-to-region border)
* superior overall faction vs faction military strength
* superior production capability (a combination of more settlements and a minimum amount of money)
* impending threat (enough force inside its provinces or in neighbouring provinces which you own)

Hopefully that clarifies matters a little..

Jerome, it clarifies matters a little indeed, but could you expand on this in more specific detail? What is the superiority level required, as since the BI version came out, I have been unsuccessful to negotiate one single protectorate...

Also it seems to me that the factors the AI looks at are a bit insufficient, the numer of battles won recently against the would-be protector as well as the number of territories lost to them should factor in as well.
A strange example is the Western Roman Empire demanding of me to become a protectorate every 4 turns or so without any actual means to enforce their will upon my faction (for example the Alemanni), they have fought about 20 or 30 battles versus me and have not won a single one. Gameplay- as well as strategy-wise it looks rather weird to have the cheek to demand protectorate status if you cannot seem to win against that faction's army.
Another example that illustrates the problems I see with this part of the diplomacy would be in the original campaign, when I played as Macedonia, I allied with Greece and got backstabbed 2 turns later, they took one city, in turn I re-took it and took all their mainland settlements. One turn later, a Greek diplomat appears and wants my faction to become a protectorate.
Surely a strange occurance?
The final critic I have about the protectorates and the negotiation thereof is the fact that often, when you elect to bow to their demands and become a protectorate, the protector will attack again after some turns without any provocation from my side. This surely must be an overlooked issue in the AI coding, as I can't see any logic behind a protector attacking its protectorate if it behaved peacefully.

[Rilder]

heres a little guide i wrote to making a protectorship

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=57330