PROTECTORATE as it is really suppose to be.

[dedmoroz]

Protectorate feature is definitely broken in 1.1 version of RTW. It is very sad because proper protectorate system will add so much more to the depth of the strategy part of the game. Beneath is a list of protectorate features which in my humble opinion should take place:

Benefits of protecting faction:
1.Protected faction will pay 10% of its income to protecting faction each turn.

2.Protected faction will not be able to attack protecting faction or to break protectorate for at least next 20 turns.

3.Foreign politics of protected faction will depend fully on protecting faction, for instance you can’t attack factions which are allied with protecting faction or you automatically get a war stance with a faction that was attacked by protecting faction.

4.Protected faction can build only basic troops (such as peasants and town watch) but no professional troops.

5.Protected faction can not build any new military buildings.

6.Protecting faction can garrison its troops inside protected faction towns. If general is present, they can recruit protected faction units, for example Gaul will able to recruit Hestati if they will garrison roman town.

7.Only protecting faction will get military access and not both as it is right now.

8.Only protecting faction will get map information and not both.

9.Province count for protecting faction will take protected faction provinces in account for total provinces gained. This way you will not need to conquer 50 provinces to win the game and deal with rebellions and disorder. You actually can win the game by holding your initial provinces only and making other faction your protectorates.

10.Protected faction must obey certain demands from protecting faction such as “attack faction”.


Benefits of protected faction (not many, but that what it is suppose to be):
1.They will get steady peace with other faction / factions and will not be annihilated.

2.They can ask for assistance against rival faction and if they will not get it within X turns, they are free to break the protectorate.

3.They can still recruit mercenary troops and build decent military force.
4.Since they can’t build any new military buildings, they can focus on economic growth.


All said above will reflect a fact that becoming a protected faction is the last option you want to use and your only hope for survival.
Along with real benefits to protecting faction, this will make protectorate system actually useful.

I would like to hear your opinions on that and feel free to add more possible benefits to the list.

[sapi]

That sounds really good - so good i can't think of any additions...

[sunsmountain]

Interesting suggestion. Do you think CA can implement this easily? I hope so. Anyway, the Protectorate's provinces count towards your current total of provinces, that is true.

However, if you give them provinces as gifts, those provinces do not count towards your total, even though they are now part of your Protectorate. Consider the fact that you have a province with a distance to capital of 80% and is difficult to maintain, however your protectorate faction can maintain it much better so you give it to them.

Should this province(s) count towards your total as well?

[JR-]

good idea, get to it R:TR/EB.

[dedmoroz]

Interesting suggestion. Do you think CA can implement this easily?

IMO, everything I mentioned is already in the game or can be done quite easily – it’s only a matter of a few simple tweaks. Well let’s see:

1.Protected faction will pay 10% of its income to protecting faction each turn.

It is the same as paying tribute – no problem then.

2.Protected faction will not be able to attack protecting faction or to break protectorate for at least next 20 turns.

There are similar restrictions already in the game – for example in some cases you can’t propose alliance to a faction which is at war with your other ally.

3.Foreign politics of protected faction will depend fully on protecting faction, for instance you can’t attack factions which are allied with protecting faction or you automatically get a war stance with a faction that was attacked by protecting faction.

Already in the game – see Roman factions.

4. Protected faction can build only basic troops (such as peasants and town watch) but no professional troops.
and
5. Protected faction can not build any new military buildings.

No problem to code that – may well be implemented in a mod (RTR?)

6. Protecting faction can garrison its troops inside protected faction towns. If general is present, they can recruit protected faction units, for example Gaul will able to recruit Hestati if they will garrison roman town.

I would like to hear modders opinion about this one.

7.Only protecting faction will get military access and not both as it is right now.
and
8.Only protecting faction will get map information and not both.

Both are simple and already in the diplomatic part of the game.


9. Province count for protecting faction will take protected faction provinces in account for total provinces gained. This way you will not need to conquer 50 provinces to win the game and deal with rebellions and disorder. You actually can win the game by holding your initial provinces only and making other faction your protectorates.

However, if you give them provinces as gifts, those provinces do not count towards your total, even though they are now part of your Protectorate. Consider the fact that you have a province with a distance to capital of 80% and is difficult to maintain, however your protectorate faction can maintain it much better so you give it to them.

Should this province(s) count towards your total as well?

Definitely positive on that.

10. Protected faction must obey certain demands from protecting faction such as “attack faction”.

Much like senate missions – there is a penalty for not obeying them.


I think all those changes are easy to implement. I think if CA is going to care about AI shortcomings in the next patch, implementation of protectorate changes mentioned above is a much easier task and well worth their time.

[Silver Rusher]

I think that where CA went wrong with Protectorates is that they messed up and got what was going to be the benefits of the protecting balance, and made it the benefit of the protectorate instead, so it all got mucked up.

Good list, the only thing I disagree with is the limitation of training Peasants and Town Watch, a better thing would be to either make all units still available or just don't let any new units be trained by the protected faction. Also maybe a really really good benefit I can think of, one that will really spice up the game, is that buildings that the protector cannot get (excluding culture buildings) and units that the protector cannot get but that the protectorate CAN get are available to the protector.

[dedmoroz]

Good list, the only thing I disagree with is the limitation of training Peasants and Town Watch, a better thing would be to either make all units still available or just don't let any new units be trained by the protected faction.

Well, you want to create some certain limitations to the protected faction but by not letting them to recruit units at all will make it impossible to break from such a dependant state and thus leave them no real chance to actually turn the flow of the game.

The purpose is to make the braking of protectorate state hard but not impossible.

As for half total income idea, I think 50% is too much and I agree with lordkhaine it will leave to protected faction no profit at all.

[Silver Rusher]

Ah, but as to the breaking protectorate thing, that could be accomplished by using the forces you have or simply just breaking free, then training up units as fast as possible.

[Akka]

Good idea, but I think you went too complex, with unnecessary conditions.

I would see a protectorate as simply an autonomous but not independant faction (ie : more or less free to run its own affairs, but is tied to the main faction for all what concerns international business, and has to pay taxes).

I would say, then :

- Have to surrender half its income.
- Can't take any initiative on international policies, as it's considered a sub-part of the main faction ; in other words : can't declare war, can't make peace, and is automatically at war/peace with any other faction that is at war/peace with the protector.
- The protector can continue to command international affairs as he sees fit, BUT if his protectorate is attacked, he must declare war to the attacker or the protectorate immediately ends.
- A protectorate can't attack its protector unless it's at least half as strong as him (according to the "overall status").
- The protectorate's provinces are counted as "conquered" for victory conditions.

I don't think that preventing the protectorate from training units, or being restricted in movement or maps, is really adequate.

[Morat]

- Have to surrender half its income.

Do you mean its gross income or its profit?

[Akka]

Do you mean its gross income or its profit?

I would say gross income. Half of the profit would simply means that they don't have to pay anything ^^

Having to pay half of the income, make it so that the protectorate will be unable to levy a real army, and will have to do with fewer units of a lesser quality.

[LordKhaine]

I would say gross income. Half of the profit would simply means that they don't have to pay anything ^^

If it was half their gross income, many factions would be doomed for a lifetime of negative profit.

[Akka]

If it was half their gross income, many factions would be doomed for a lifetime of negative profit.

As for half total income idea, I think 50% is too much and I agree with lordkhaine it will leave to protected faction no profit at all.

Well, I disagree.

Money only pay for three things :
- Military units.
- Wages.
- Buildings.

What makes factions go bankrupt, is the enormous amount of units they buy and support. But the point of a protectorate, is that you have only a token military, the protector does the job, and you pay him for it.
To pay only 50 % of the income for defense, is much less than what factions usually do. The protectorate will simply have to make drastic cuts in its military, and concentrate on buildings. But well, isn't that the point ? :)