No Tengo Denari...Oh No!

[R'as al Ghul]

Remember that silly eighties song?
Nevermind. I'm broke and not making a single denari due to invasion forces roaming my lands. Is there any way to make money really quick? Like now?
I have a diplomat on my allies land a bit further away and did already sell them my map a few years ago. Would they fancy to buy it again? Has anyone tried to sell the map to the same faction multiple times? Any other idea how to make money quick? Invading an enemy city is no option at the moment, I'm afraid.

R'as

[Nestor]

Become a protectorate of your enemy

[Magraev]

Selling maps is cheese imho.

Try disbanding troops (you obviously have more than your economy can bear), demolish building you don't need for a quick fix and make peace and trade with neighbors.

[R'as al Ghul]

Become a protectorate of your enemy

Can you offer this in the diplomacy screen or do you have to be asked?

[R'as al Ghul]

Selling maps is cheese imho.

Why?

Try disbanding troops (you obviously have more than your economy can bear), demolish building you don't need for a quick fix and make peace and trade with neighbors.

I'll look into that. Good idea. There may be the one or other building and depleted merc unit I don't need.

[Octavius Julius]

Selling maps is interesting.

The first time you sell a map, you will get a nice bit of cash for it, and the more territories you own and other factions' territories you can see, the more your map is worth.

If the other faction doesn't have enough cash to buy your map, then you obviously cannot sell it to them. They say something like "we cannot meet your proposal at this time" or similar.

Then, if you station diplomats around the the other factions cities or armies, you can sell them your map every turn or so, provided you are discovering more land. Generally, as far as I am aware, selling your map every turn to the same faction, will get you about 100 Dn per sale. That's with modest or little expansion/exploration.

Usually, if I'm playing as the Julii, I can get about 1,000 to 2,000 Dn for a first time sale of a map.

My tactic is to send my diplomat to Patavium (Gauls), then go east to Segestica (Dacia, if they have kicked the rebels out), then go north through the Alps to Montognium (Germanics) and then travel onto Sambrovina (Britons). By then you will have collected a nice amount, however, those guys will know exactly what your empire looks like, but that doesn't matter as this is the AI, not a human player.

The better your diplomat is, the more money you get, as he is capable of driving a hard bargain. A good idea is to swap maps. This will show you where all his provinces and cities are, it also reveals resources, so it's nice knowing which provinces have mines in them.

[Nestor]

Can you offer this in the diplomacy screen or do you have to be asked?

No, you cannot offer it but if you ask for a ceasefire (or alliance or them to become a protectorate or something else silly enough...) they might do.

They do in my campaigns if they are strong enough! You can play with the diplomacy options until they offer it

It happens with my preassigned enemies in the game though, the de facto enemy factions, not the casual ones. (Didn't try it with casual enemies, should work, I suppose...)

[Vlad Tzepes]

You can make lots of money through diplomacy. Negotiate, ask for single payments or regular tribute. You can sell maps regularly, they will always buy if you make some new discoveries.

Chase rebels from your lands, they disrupt trade.

Don't garrison more than needed, unused troops gobble a lot of money. Build docks, better roads. Keep an eye to your governors. You'd better enslave than exterminate at the begining (later you'll have problems with population growth, but when you start your campaign, you need more people in your cities).

Above all, try to understand how it works and be patient.

My first campaign was a complete failure. I was permanently broke, couldn't build anything...

The second was quite alright, I never went on negative. But when Civil War erupted, my financial stability shattered.

The third has been a success. I earned more than I could spend, having like 800 k in the bank. (Well yes, faction matters. Scipii get the rich Greek and Eastern Mediterranean provinces, that helps to strike rich quick ).

[R'as al Ghul]

Thanks Vlad,
I obviously left the impression that this was my first campaign. My fault.
To clarify, after successfully having won with Brutii, Greece, Egypt and Seleucia I am now playing Parthia on vh/vh. Things went rather well for the first 30 turns. I captured Seleucia and Hatra from the Seleucids. I wiped out Armenia and took the rebel Province between the Parthian capitol and Armenia. I also took Campus Alanni(?) from the Skythians. I'm allied to Dacia and Thracia. Enemies are Seleucia, Pontus and Egypt. I could successfully defeat them repeatedly in the desert with HA-only armies. The only reasonable income so far has been from map-trading, capturing cities and either enslaving or exterminating.
The situation now is that Pontus tries to take Armenia. Seleucia tries to retake Hatra and Egypt marches on either Seleucia or Susa. I have little armies in Hatra, Seleucia and the Armenian capitol. After about 5-6 battles each of these army stacks needs retraining very badly. Just when I ran out of money. Almost all my units are desperately needed. The garrisons in the remote cities are mainly peasants and slingers. All fighting units are either HA or PersianCav.
There are no rebels on my land but invading armies, full stacks of them. Roads are build, docks are build etc. I think I have understood the game mechanics and I'm patient but as it is right now, I need money now to retrain my units or a ceasefire.

R'as

[warlordmb]

Thanks Vlad,
I obviously left the impression that this was my first campaign. My fault.
To clarify, after successfully having won with Brutii, Greece, Egypt and Seleucia I am now playing Parthia on vh/vh. Things went rather well for the first 30 turns. I captured Seleucia and Hatra from the Seleucids. I wiped out Armenia and took the rebel Province between the Parthian capitol and Armenia. I also took Campus Alanni(?) from the Skythians. I'm allied to Dacia and Thracia. Enemies are Seleucia, Pontus and Egypt. I could successfully defeat them repeatedly in the desert with HA-only armies. The only reasonable income so far has been from map-trading, capturing cities and either enslaving or exterminating.
The situation now is that Pontus tries to take Armenia. Seleucia tries to retake Hatra and Egypt marches on either Seleucia or Susa. I have little armies in Hatra, Seleucia and the Armenian capitol. After about 5-6 battles each of these army stacks needs retraining very badly. Just when I ran out of money. Almost all my units are desperately needed. The garrisons in the remote cities are mainly peasants and slingers. All fighting units are either HA or PersianCav.
There are no rebels on my land but invading armies, full stacks of them. Roads are build, docks are build etc. I think I have understood the game mechanics and I'm patient but as it is right now, I need money now to retrain my units or a ceasefire.

R'as

Here is an option you might consider as a short term fix.

Pick a territory you might afford to give up temporarily. Offer it for sale to someone even your enemy. Just make sure there are no military buildings left and your units are outside the city.

I tried this once playing Julii against Gaul. I offered a territory to the gaul's that I was sure I couldn't hold onto and they offered me 34000+ denarii.
About 20 turns later I grabbed it back with new armies payed for from the sale of this territory (I think it was Alesia).

The other thing you might try is every time you offer Trade Rights or are approached by a diplomat for Trade Rights ask for a small donation. I usually ask for 1100 denarii. I don't always get it but 4/5 times I do.

Hope this helps.

And hang in there. Remember - God is not always on the side with the biggest battalions.

[R'as al Ghul]

Here is an option you might consider as a short term fix.

Pick a territory you might afford to give up temporarily. Offer it for sale to someone even your enemy. Just make sure there are no military buildings left and your units are outside the city.

I tried this once playing Julii against Gaul. I offered a territory to the gaul's that I was sure I couldn't hold onto and they offered me 34000+ denarii.
[..]Hope this helps.

And hang in there. Remember - God is not always on the side with the biggest battalions.

Ahh, now that's an excellent idea. I could sell Hatra back to the Selucids or perhaps to Egypt to spice things up and probably disturb their alliance with Seleucia. Hmmm, wish I wasn't at work now.
Thx.

R'as

[Vlad Tzepes]

Thanks Vlad,
I obviously left the impression that this was my first campaign. My fault.


R'as

Sorry m8 yes that's how it looked like.

I read again your post - did you consider selling some cities that are trouble to you right now? Or abandon those that need strong garrisons? Or those form the edge of your empire? (It's also historically accurate, Romans left some frontier provinces when their empire started to fall apart). I did that once, shrinking my empire to get some money when the Civil War started (playing Julii). Or just make a desperate charge in enemy territory, taking cities, destroying/exterminating/leaving for the next target? It won't work for long...

Or just accept bankruptcy , happens all the time in real life...

PS - No Tengo Denarii was silly, yes, i'd rather go for "Money-money-money, must be funny, in the rich-men's-world" - ABBA.

[R'as al Ghul]

Sorry m8 yes that's how it looked like.

I read again your post - did you consider selling some cities that are trouble to you right now? Or abandon those that need strong garrisons? Or those form the edge of your empire? (It's also historically accurate, Romans leaved some frontier provinces when their empire started to fall apart). I did that once, shrinking my empire to get some money when the Civil War started (playing Julii). Or just make a desperate charge in enemy territory, taking cities, destroying/exterminating/leaving for the next target? It won't work for long...

Nevermind, I have the tendency to assume mind-reading capabilities. Ask Mrs. Al Ghul about it, lol.
I'm afraid further invasion isn't possible. If my troops leave their places, I'll loose at least 2 cities, Hatra and Seleucia. I think selling a city is the only possibility right now, apart from just withdrawing.
R'as

[warlordmb]

Nevermind, I have the tendency to assume mind-reading capabilities. Ask Mrs. Al Ghul about it, lol.
I'm afraid further invasion isn't possible. If my troops leave their places, I'll loose at least 2 cities, Hatra and Seleucia. I think selling a city is the only possibility right now, apart from just withdrawing.
R'as

Fighting three enemies at any one time on VH/VH is damn tough to do. I admire your courage but you really need to reduce the number of enemies.
Selling a city for cash as part of a peace initiative seems like a must. Just don't sell Seluciea - it has the Gardens of Babylon Wonder worth 40% farming bonus. As your having financial difficulties, holding onto this territory must be part of your immediate strategy. Seleucia is also quite defensible with mountain passes to the north and several bridge/ford crossing points to the south where a smaller force can beat a larger force.

Have fun and let me know what you decide and how you get on.

Ave, brother.

[qmark]

At the risk of repeating what's already been posted but here goes...

... I'm on my second campaign as the greeks. I found it quite difficult as the Julii to make a load of cash too. The greeks make (along with my extra experience) it easy.

Get about 4/5 diplomats wandering around the map. Get them to offer maps but quite often I find the other faction will demand money and offer their own map info.

Try this..

...offer the map info along with trade rights and an alliance. Demand 10,000 denarii for this. They'll probably come back with a counter offer. Work them for about 6 tries before accepting the highest bid. Works a treat, even if they break the alliance. I'm still being paid by the Pontic's for another 3 turns despite them breaking the alliance, dumb I know.

I've now got about 90,000 denarii and all my upgrade queues are full. I've a big standing army and little militia policing my towns/cities.

I don't deny that trade is by far the biggest contributor to my treasury but this happening 3,4 or 5 times in a few turns fairly helps.

[warlordmb]

I have found with this game that long term planning works really well especially on the harder levels.
One of the mistakes I found I was making when I first played this game was expanding too quickly.
Later in the game I would find I had not enough troops/too many enemies,
cities with buildings I didn't really need (military buildings, usually), and cities with riot problems requiring huge stacks to keep the peace.
The other thing I noticed I was doing was building because a slot was available. Bulding should fit in with an overall plan.

Now, I have one major troop producer capable of producing quality troops of any kind with all of the upgrades that are available for that level of city. This is usually my capital. I set one other city to specialise in cav and missile units. The rest of my cities I concentrate on Population/Government control and on Economy. I only produce enough armies to manage the tasks I have determined for them both now and in response to any AI moves. I may have small numbers of reserves in some of the border cities to replenish losses but I am careful with them and their numbers.

City growth and the raising of armies now has to fit my Grand Stategic Plan so that at any time I know what I am doing. This game can be very complex - the more complex the more territories you win and the more demands on your time and resources.

By the time I hit the year 200BC I usually have about 10-12 territories (most have Governors). Three main field armies commanded by decent rated generals and enough reserves to cover any changes the enemies hit you with.

The harder the level you play, the more the AI will find you out if your budding empire has any deficincies or imbalances in it. This game does work really well if you plan properly. Grabbing a city in the next province because your spy tells you there is only a general unit defending it with 20 men might seem a good idea short term. But if you don't consider how you are going to hold onto it, garrison and invest in building it up and what effect this will have on your present strategy and long term goals will sooner or later jump up and bite you.

This game will get you like that if you present it with an oppertunity. Yes, the AI might be dumb or bugged in some ways but it will get you.

Some of the factions in the vanilla game are too weak and some are too strong (=egypt) and this might need tweaking a bit - along with the speed of population growth which IMHO is way too quick.

[Magraev]

The reason I think map-selling is cheezy is, that it's possible to sell the same info repeatedly even if there has been almost no changes since last time you sold it.

Selling it once is just fine by me, but players that rely on selling maps each year should consider a lower difficulty setting instead. There is no shame in playing on medium - I do it myself.

[The_Emperor]

Selling map info may seem cheesy but sometimes you have no choice but to do it.

Try a game as Parthia, you'll be so low on cash early on you will HAVE to sell map info to stay afloat with Armenia being agressive and dirt poor heartlands.

And then you have to face off against the Egyptian Hordes with their limitless cash reserves...

[Bhruic]

Strictly speaking, that's not true. I've played Parthia (and Armenia, which is worse off) without selling a single map. It's more difficult to get your economy going, but as long as your army is being successful, you'll get enough denarii to survive.

Personally I find the whole map selling thing cheap, not because you can do it repeatedly, but because the AI really doesn't make any use of it. I mean, buying a map that would allow you to make a better tactical attack decision would be good. Buying a map because you're programmed to buy maps seems kinda dumb. I guess it's a good way to get money for the "spend, spend, spend" crowd.

Being broke isn't necessarily a bad thing. Being broke and not having an aggressive army on the march is. If you are truly broke, then you've likely got too many troops sitting around on their hands. Either form 'em up, or disband them, and get on the offensive.

Bh

[R'as al Ghul]

After thorough reorganisation the Parthian empire is safe. For the moment.
I'm still at war with Pontus, Seleucia and Egypt. I lifted sieges at Hatra and the town above it and defeated an Egyptian invasion force marching on Seleucia. With the sieges lifted money can be made again in those towns.
My diplomat sold trade rights to the Thracians for about 1200den for several turns and a mappiece to the Dacians for about 1700 per turn. Nice but I needed to retrain my armies for the next turn. I looked over my cities and thrashed buildings like barracks and archer ranges that I had captured and don't intend to use. Each one gave me 400den. I managed to get from -1800 to +1000. After that some depleted mercs were dispatched. The buildings gave me enough money to retrain the very depleted force at Hatra which was likely to see another siege next turn by the Seleucids. Spies swarmed out into enemy lands to inquire how many forces were still on the march in my direction. Especially Pontus was of interest. I figured that they had to be short on troops after I destroyed a 2200 men sieging force. End turn.

Seleucia lays siege to Hatra, again. About 5 Phalanx-pikemen. Yawn. My Leader and his 7 retrained units of HA ate them for breakfast. A small Pontus force appeared in the Armenian mountains which I cannot reach in one move. A small force is sent out to intercept them. Egypt moves on Seleucia again with a considerable stack and a family member. The army in Seleucia is still depleted and needs retraining. Luckily my savings program and the tributes gave me about 4.000 denari to spend. Retraining time. The Egyptians will reach Seleucia in the next turn and besiege me again, but by then the army will be retrained and sally out. Pontus capital seems to be empty of troops as well as the Seleucids cities of Antiochia and the other city nearby. Perhaps I've already won the attrition war? Egyptian Palmyra seems empty, too.
On the field of Diplomacy I didn't have any luck this turn. All of my enemies declined my offer to give them Hatra and my map for a ceasefire. All of them seem to be sure that they can win this war. Enemy forces are thinned, though. The Seleucids have 2 family members and several stacks of one to four units at the border/bridge between Hatra and it's eastern neighbour. No Pontus force is to be seen except a 5 unit stack besieging a small town in the Armenian mountains. An army is on the move to destroy them. My two main armies at Seleucia and Hatra are retrained and eager to fight.

R'as

[warlordmb]

After thorough reorganisation the Parthian empire is safe. For the moment.
I'm still at war with Pontus, Seleucia and Egypt. I lifted sieges at Hatra and the town above it and defeated an Egyptian invasion force marching on Seleucia. With the sieges lifted money can be made again in those towns.
My diplomat sold trade rights to the Thracians for about 1200den for several turns and a mappiece to the Dacians for about 1700 per turn. Nice but I needed to retrain my armies for the next turn. I looked over my cities and thrashed buildings like barracks and archer ranges that I had captured and don't intend to use. Each one gave me 400den. I managed to get from -1800 to +1000. After that some depleted mercs were dispatched. The buildings gave me enough money to retrain the very depleted force at Hatra which was likely to see another siege next turn by the Seleucids. Spies swarmed out into enemy lands to inquire how many forces were still on the march in my direction. Especially Pontus was of interest. I figured that they had to be short on troops after I destroyed a 2200 men sieging force. End turn.

Seleucia lays siege to Hatra, again. About 5 Phalanx-pikemen. Yawn. My Leader and his 7 retrained units of HA ate them for breakfast. A small Pontus force appeared in the Armenian mountains which I cannot reach in one move. A small force is sent out to intercept them. Egypt moves on Seleucia again with a considerable stack and a family member. The army in Seleucia is still depleted and needs retraining. Luckily my savings program and the tributes gave me about 4.000 denari to spend. Retraining time. The Egyptians will reach Seleucia in the next turn and besiege me again, but by then the army will be retrained and sally out. Pontus capital seems to be empty of troops as well as the Seleucids cities of Antiochia and the other city nearby. Perhaps I've already won the attrition war? Egyptian Palmyra seems empty, too.
On the field of Diplomacy I didn't have any luck this turn. All of my enemies declined my offer to give them Hatra and my map for a ceasefire. All of them seem to be sure that they can win this war. Enemy forces are thinned, though. The Seleucids have 2 family members and several stacks of one to four units at the border/bridge between Hatra and it's eastern neighbour. No Pontus force is to be seen except a 5 unit stack besieging a small town in the Armenian mountains. An army is on the move to destroy them. My two main armies at Seleucia and Hatra are retrained and eager to fight.

R'as

Hi Ras,

Thanks for the update on the war in the east. Nice to hear someone else is having fun and winning.

If you like we could do a swap. You tell me how your little empire is getting on and I'll return the compliment and tell you how mine is getting on. I am playing Julii on H/H using R:TR Mod 3.1. I'm currently at 204BC Taken half of Gaul and just piled into Iberia (Spain).
I love Gaul bashing!!

Ave brother.

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi Ras,
If you like we could do a swap. You tell me how your little empire is getting on and I'll return the compliment and tell you how mine is getting on. I am playing Julii on H/H using R:TR Mod 3.1. I'm currently at 204BC Taken half of Gaul and just piled into Iberia (Spain).
I love Gaul bashing!!

Ave brother.

Well, I'd love to hear how your campaign is going on. I always like to hear camaign storys. During the high-time of the nap-mod we had several threads over at the Lordz' forum. We posted screenies of the big battles with a little intro for the context of the campaign. That was always entertaining. A similar thread would be entertaining and people always like to report and post screenies. I don't know though if I can report here frequently. I probably won't post until Wednesday. But please feel free to post your reports.

R'as

[ericostermann]

It seems you finally found a game worth the struggle. Did you think of maybe doing what happens in real life at times by withdrawing a bit to consolidate and reorganize? As you do you can destroy all building sin those cities you withdraw from. Everyone complains the game is too easy...maybe at the end of the game you might not win...that can be fun too. I fin dgam ewhere I struggle really great. Eliminating troops is bad I believe and destroying buildings everywhere but cities you withdraw fun is just a downward struggle. One thing you might consider is this. Withdraw a bit, but make your army into 2/3's defensive to defend your territory and take 1/3 and go on the offensive. I had five gaul armies to my one last night, but by driving toward their cities and ignoring the impact of them they actually started pulling back to defend from me. If you have to make 2-3 Invasion forces due to multiple enemies that is okay...but you must Counter-Attack. It may seem illogical, but you must Draw back a little and Attack when all seems bleak.

[warlordmb]

Well, I'd love to hear how your campaign is going on. I always like to hear camaign storys. During the high-time of the nap-mod we had several threads over at the Lordz' forum. We posted screenies of the big battles with a little intro for the context of the campaign. That was always entertaining. A similar thread would be entertaining and people always like to report and post screenies. I don't know though if I can report here frequently. I probably won't post until Wednesday. But please feel free to post your reports.

R'as

Hi Ras,

I do most of my posting from work/training Mon-Fri as I'm not connected to the big Net at home. I'll start putting a Campaign preview together tonight along with a current account of the campaign ready for posting Mon morning.

Had a look at the other forum sites here at the org. and they have a site especially for battle accounts - it's the Totalwar Series forum - Story/PBM
- Throne Room.
Shall we post there??
RSVP

Ave brother,

[The_Emperor]

yeah the Throne room was also made for battle accounts as well as PBEMs.

I am going to post one about my Parthian campaign, it should be interesting because the Egyptians in my campaign sent an army with some chariots (and probably other units as well, my agents haven't had a good look at it yet), and they are to be greeted by an all Horse Archer Army led by one of my generals (no Inf and no other cav unless I can afford some Bedouins)

Anyways looks like its going to be 'hit and run' all the way to Selucia... While my other Army works to steal Sidon and Jerusalem, hopefully after that I can make a dash for Memphis.

[warlordmb]

yeah the Throne room was also made for battle accounts as well as PBEMs.

I am going to post one about my Parthian campaign, it should be interesting because the Egyptians in my campaign sent an army with some chariots (and probably other units as well, my agents haven't had a good look at it yet), and they are to be greeted by an all Horse Archer Army led by one of my generals (no Inf and no other cav unless I can afford some Bedouins)

Anyways looks like its going to be 'hit and run' all the way to Selucia... While my other Army works to steal Sidon and Jerusalem, hopefully after that I can make a dash for Memphis.

I'd like to hear about that one. If there is one faction I always stuggle to deal with its the Eggs. I played against them as Scipii and as the Seleucids and had a right old time beating them. They expand from the start like rats breeding on happy hour. Those big bowmen units plus axemen plus charoits make them a pretty decent faction to fight with. They also have two wonders from the off. Never wanted to play them as a faction though. Never been a sun worshipper sort I guess.

[Haroli]

After reading all the posts about poor economies and having experienced bankruptcy myself a couple of times, I think I might have found a realistic solution that is easy for most readers to do.

Change the resource values in the descr_sm_resources file which is located in the activision/Rome/data files on your computer. They are low --- some as low as 2. The highest resource is gold at 30. I doubled them all and made some other adjustments. I made slaves the same value as gold. So when you enslave a population you will get more money. Doing this basically doubles your trade income. You still have to play the game properly and develop your economy.