P.S. Wouldn't it be awesome to have the graphic quality (and JUST the graphic quality) of RTW units for MTW?
This is precisely what I said awhile back, and to a large degree I still feel the same.

Just a couple of points, the Tactical AI was MUCH more challenging, and the manner in which the unit stats, terrain effects, morale, fatigue, and all that sort of stuff, simply worked MUCH better. Excepte for the Tactical AI (, MTW's was an improvement), all that stuff worked better in MTW and best in STW. I was able to make much better use of Terrain to effect the outcome of a battle, in terms of moral, fatigue, etc., than in Vanilla RTW. I would go so far as to say that, at the current speed of RTW, Terrain effects are non-effective toward the outcome of a game.

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One thing I mentioned in a post of another thread, is regarding the Campaign Map. There really can't be any direct comparison between RTW's map and STW/MTW's maps, as they are simply DIFFERENT.

Yet, in comparing the overall game experience, in relation to the *advance* that is RTW, CA has giveth and taketh away.

I was thinking on this today, one aspect regarding STW/MTW's map missing from RTW is the ability to win battles/provinces W/O having to literally fight a battle(s).

The STW/MTW map was so "Chess-like", that it was possible to outmaneuver the AI on the Map, winning battles and taking provinces.

In other words, you could maneuver your Stacks in such a way that you simply out-Stacked the AI causing it to retreat from a Province.

Additionally, it was possible to out maneuver the AI in such as that the AI would move its Stacks in order to counter your moves, leaving one (or more) of its provinces open, without any Stack present, allowing the Player to move in w/o any battle taking place at all.

THIS cannot be achieved with the RTW map. While it's still possible to out-think/out-maneuver the AI to a good degree, it is NOT possible (or, at least it's very rare) to take a City w/o a battle, except by Siege, in the event the City garrison is hopelessly out-matched and doesn't come to fight. So far, I've only noticed this during the very beginning stages as the Juii.

As a result, especially during the beginning stages, a Player MUST fight a number of redundant and inconsequential battles. Unmodded, this particularly the case, TOO MANY BATTLES!!! The Total Realism Mod, I've found, cuts down on this a good deal, but not fully, and the little Rebel bands continue to appear and roam around to no good purpose whatsoever.

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Again, regarding "Immersion", I said the PRECISE same thing.

Shiano!!!

Even MTW didn't fully measure up to STW, in terms of Immersion. MTW was good, but Shogun: Total War was the best. RTW, even with all the graphical goodies simply misses the mark.

I never have the feeling that I'm *Ceasar* out to conquer the Gauls; but in STW, I always felt like a Damiyo!!! Samurai.

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...or these tactical flankings in front of your nose, ....
BTW, what exactly do you mean? Troop Dancing while being pummled by arrows?

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In comparing RTW, should I mention the MedMod? One wonders if the guys at CA ever played it to any extent at all?

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Back to Shiano....

Me: a couple of Nagata units (hopefully with armour); 3 or 4 units of Spears (again, hopefully armoured); 2 or 3 units of VERY good Archers; my General and his bodyguard; and a unit of Calvalry (hopefully Archers, if only 2 foot archers).

Not even a full stack, gimme that, put me on that mountain in Shiano, and I don't care how many Stacks the AI has. Oh, the good ole days.... That's just defending, Taking Shiano was quite a challenge. Simply manuevering Stacks on the Map, hoping for the best possible match was a challenge.

One thing I hated though, was that the AI would ALWAYS put its troops near the top of the hill WAY at the edge of the map. I always thought the AI s/h put it's troops at the top of the side mountain, just like any sensical player would. I guess the coders thought the AI couldn't handle it, if a player attacked up *both* slopes, front and rear/side.

Yo, ho, ho, ho.... Yo, ho, ho, ho.... Yo, ho, ho, ho.... Yo, ho, ho, ho....

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Icerian Rex, one last thing, if you either mod, or try one of the exisiting mods that adjust the Kill speed, etc. You'll find that your appreciation of RTW's graphics will improve greatly!!! Truly so, with Total Realism, as they've changed some of the skins, etc, but the big thing is they took out all the *Candy Cartoon Coloring* CA used, and replaced it with more natural/realistic colors. Big Improvement.

Now, I get more of the sense that I spend half my time marching across the battlefield, and there's about sixty seconds of combat.
I never thought about it that way, but so, so, so, true.

I remember in MTW spending at least a half hour or more in some pretty "epic" battles, and there was always the palpable sense that my abilities were going to control the outcome!
Do as I did. Like you I *wanted* to finish a Vanilla campaign first, but one day I simply got fed up. So, I decided to make a second installation and use the mods with that. So, I've got two installations, one Vanilla, the other the combo of Rome: Total Realism and Total Combat mods. Since doing so, Vanilla is an afterthought I haven't played since.

Luck!