STW mod

[CBR]

Yuuki and I have been working on finishing Barocca's STW mod so it would come as close to original STW as possible. But we have done a few corrections to improve the balance (yes even old STW wasnt perfect heh)

Of course the mod cant get precisely like the good old days as valor upgrades cost more. But the basics with a nice rock-scissor-paper system is there.

The mod also contains the MI units so the question is if we should make a original STW era AND a MI era. One big difference between STW and MI are the cav speeds and muskets (but that also depends what MI version we are talking about)

So right now we basically have STW but with the MI units included and slightly better muskets. As MTW is different we can never have something precisely like old STW/MI but we can get close.

All the old STW maps are in the process of being converted and we still need to look at a few units so its not finished yet.


CBR

[Sp00n]

Let me know when its finished I played the old beta version last year and it was pretty good so I have high hopes it will be good, you can mail me CBR m8 or leave a note at the Takiyama site if you need me for any testing games.

Just please make sure spears kill cav a major thing missing from MTW that did happen in Shogun.

I hope the community trys it out be nice to play some games whilst we waiting to see if CA bother to try and sort out Rome.

MizuSp00n

[L'Impresario]

The mod also contains the MI units so the question is if we should make a original STW era AND a MI era. One big difference between STW and MI are the cav speeds and muskets (but that also depends what MI version we are talking about)
CBR

No need to ask such a question when the answer is obvious . The fact that MTW allows multiple eras is begging the finalisation of such a mod. You could even use multiple versions of the MI stats, if there is a disagreement about them

[Orda Khan]

I was under the impression that the Mongol units have not been included because the Mod was never finished??
As far as I am aware they still have yet to be completed so I would question the worth of adding 'MI', afterall it only introduced Japanese fantasy units besides.
Unless the Mongol units are finished and added I honestly don't see the point, considering the popularity of Mods with the community and, of course, when the majority are playing RTW now anyway. Sad but true

.....Orda

[Puzz3D]

I was under the impression that the Mongol units have not been included because the Mod was never finished?? As far as I am aware they still have yet to be completed so I would question the worth of adding 'MI', afterall it only introduced Japanese fantasy units besides.

That's true there are no Mongol Era units in STWmod. The new Sengoku Period units introduced in WE/MI v1.0 were not well balanced. We have tried to make the naginata cav fit in with the STW v1.12 cav units so that it serves a useful purpose without unbalancing the game. The ninja and kensai are there along with a new hatamoto unit, but as it stands they are all expensive. Without the battlefield upgrades, small units don't gain the boost they would have gotten in WE/MI, and are thus less effective. Even if we drop the price a bit, it's going to be difficult to use these units in such a way that makes them cost effective. I think their use will remain highly specialized. Players could also make a rule not to use the WE/MI units if they only want original STW units in the game.

[Puzz3D]

It was necessary to change the projectiles.txt file to get STWmod guns and Community mod xbows properly adjusted. MTW only supports one projectiles.txt file at a time, so it breaks compatibility with MTW/VI. However, we will include a projectile file swapper so players can go back an forth between the mod and regular MTW/VI. Swapping projectiles.txt requires that you restart the game.

Another advantage of changing the projectiles.txt is the removal of upgrade discounts on ranged units which are specified in that file. This means you won't see ranged units being pumped up into high quality melee units. You also won't see cheap units like yari ashigaru getting pumped up into super units because the valor upgrade is more expensive in MTW, and the weapon and armor upgrades are properly calculated using the current value of the unit rather than being computed from the base cost as was done in WE/MI. The samurai archers do retain the modest melee capability they had in original STW which is just a result of going back and using original STW combat stats for everything. All the movement speeds are the original STW speeds with the exception of cavalry archers which are slightly faster, and now equal speed of the yari cavalry.

You can't sell off valor because all units are purchased at valor 0, and the 20% tax on more than 4 of the same unit is still there. We have no control over those features. All unit costs are 2x the original STW costs, but we moved naginata (425) and yari cavalry (475) to the closest multiple of 100. We are experimenting with the warrior monk at 10% higher cost than in original STW, and several units such as naginata and yari cavalry have +2 morale enhancements. Right now playing at 10k or11k morale feels ok with no valor upgrades. Units will rout when used poorly and fight well when used properly. You don't have super units like v3 cmaa with 14 combat points clobbering your spears. This could open the door to modest weapon and armor upgrades since you don't have to spend the money on valor just to raise morale. We want to make final determination of tweaks such as these morale changes by battle testing with anyone who wants to try it.

The spears do work, and they work very well. Yari samurai have 2 defensive combat points, but they +8 attack points when fighting cav. The best cav is heavy cav with 8 combat points (2 attack and 6 defense). So, the yari sams have a +2 attack point (40%) advantage against the best cav. Naginata cav with 6 points and yari cav with 5 points will get chewed ver fast by yari sams. There is also the yari ashigaru which although weaker and lower morale is faster than yari sam, and quite dangerous to cav.

Seeing as the arquebusiers were not popular in STW we opted to depart from original STW by not including that unit. Instead, the Portuguese teppo in STWmod has the same characteristics as the musket in original STW. The Japanese teppo, which was a better made teppo, is 50% better. This unit would not be included in the STW era, but would be in the STW/MI era along with the ninja, kensai and naganata cav units, possibly slightly faster cav and possibly archers with additional ammo if players wanted an era that offered somewhat more dynamic gameplay. The Japanese teppo as currently configured is half as strong as the musket in WE/MI v1.02, and very vulnerable to cav charge. It can even be successfully charged by a yari samurai when in 3 ranks. The yari sam will loose about 15 men crossing no-man's land.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

sounds very good.

However, i always thought that the musket unit in STW was the one huge unbalanced unit in the game, which made MP very boring, so i'm a bit concerned that you're modelling it on the MI musket unit that was more powerful than in the original STW - if anything a less effective unit of musket than in STW would be better (and more realistic IMO).

[CBR]

The STW mod musket is not as powerful as the MI 1.02 musket, not even close heh. Both the kills per salvo as well as less ammo means it needs a lot of support. Archers will kill them too.

Although I have only played a bit MI 1.02 I definitely thought muskets were too powerful. They will be a more important element in an army compared to old STW but still just a support element. They are nice in helping to stop a bad rush but wont survive long if not supported.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

sounds very good.However, i always thought that the musket unit in STW was the one huge unbalanced unit in the game, which made MP very boring, so i'm a bit concerned that you're modelling it on the MI musket unit that was more powerful than in the original STW - if anything a less effective unit of musket than in STW would be better (and more realistic IMO).

We are not modelling the teppo on the musket in MI. It's modelled on the musket in original STW. The musket in original STW in 3 rank rotating fire gets 1 kill per volley on a yari samurai at max range, and that's what the Portuguese teppo in STWmod gets. The Japanese teppo gets 1.5 kills per volley. A WE/MI v102 musket gets 3 kills per volley on the same target. So, all the guns in STWmod are weaker than WE/MI. Some people call WE/MI STW, but it's not the same. When I say original STW, I'm referring to STW v1.12 which was released in Jun 2000 and patched to v1.12 in Oct 2000. WE/MI came out in Aug 2001, and the v1.02 patch for it was released in Nov 2001.

[Tomisama]

Wow! Sounds Great

To me STW was the best era, and MTW the best engine, so I couldn’t be happier that the development of this mod is continuing. Personally I find it more interesting than anything that may happen with RTW now or in the future.

I am thinking that this mod could very well attract a class of more serious players. And hoping that those dedicated warriors will form a multiplayer community all it’s own. We’ll see!

Some questions (some more serious than others ).

1. I think I read somewhere that due to the difference in the way that the two games handled colors, that the units have some sort of speckling problem. Is that true (or am I thinking of some other mod), and if so, what would be needed to fix that?

2. I miss the sound and smoke of the guns we had before. Somehow to me they got lost in MTW. I could always tell when the range units engaged and see where the activity as, even if I was doing something far from that action. I miss that. Any hope of getting it back?

3. I read on the other forum that Elmo was working on a multiplayer campaign for this mod. Was wondering if there was any news on how that was going?

Thanks guys for all that you’re doing. I will certainly do all that I can to help.

Off to post the link to this thread on my Clan forum

[Tera]

Thanks for this, really looking forward to play - However I have the italian version of VI on an english version of MTW - is this a problem??

BTW, I think the Naginata Cavalry was the missing piece in STW cavalry, which use was quite limited. However, NC were overpowering: both YC and HC beat them but in real terms against infantry and guns the NC was the natural choice. There wasn't a real difference between NC killing a no-dachi and a HC killing one, in fact probably the NC would kill it faster although the HC would lose a few men less.

How did you balance it out?

[CBR]

Upgrades were too cheap in STW/MI and AFAIK 8k-10k was the standard in MI and that allowed lots of upgrades to be bought.

In this mod lesser units can no longer be upgraded to make them better compared to more expensive units. And you dont have enough money to just buy the most expensive units. NC are cheaper than HC but not as good.


CBR

[spacecadet]

Yuuki / CBR,
Is there a latest build thats available for testing (where is this "STWmod beta 5")? I know a few other peeps (Wolves )that wanna give this a go.

Space

ps ah just saw that link above.

[Puzz3D]

Thanks for this, really looking forward to play - However I have the italian version of VI on an english version of MTW - is this a problem??

BTW, I think the Naginata Cavalry was the missing piece in STW cavalry, which use was quite limited. However, NC were overpowering: both YC and HC beat them but in real terms against infantry and guns the NC was the natural choice. There wasn't a real difference between NC killing a no-dachi and a HC killing one, in fact probably the NC would kill it faster although the HC would lose a few men less.

How did you balance it out?

I don't think barocca's STWmod writes over any language files.

HC (1200 florins, 2/6 att/def) beat WM (1100, 5/2) in STWmod. YC (1000, 2/3 + 4/0 anti-cav = 6/3) beat HC. NC (900, 4/2) loose to HC, YC, WM and YS (400, 0/2 + 4/4 anti-cav = 4/6). ND (600, 5/-2) will loose to HC, NC and YC. NI (800, 0/6) will loose to HC and NC, but will beat YC. So, the YC fits inbetween the ND and NI while the NC fits inbetween the NI and WM. We can use the cav charge to fine tune things. As it stands right now, the NC may be doing a bit too good vs the WM. We could take some off the NC charge to place it more equally between the NI and WM. Alternatively, we could increase the NC cost to 1000. That would leave room to increase the cost of NI to 900 as it might be too good at 800 considering that the WM is 1100 rather than 1000. I was also thinking of moving the NC from 4/2 to 3/3 since it has more armor than a YC so you would think that armor would help its defensive capability. However, it's a faster infantry killer at 4/2 so that distinguishes it more from the HC. It would still be a faster killer at 3/3, but only 20% faster than HC.

Into all of this we have to place the CA (900, 1/2). Right now it's set at 2/1, equal in speed to YC and has 1 more charge than it had in STW v1.12. The charge is still pretty weak even with that extra point. I think it does have to go back to 1/2 (att/def), but equal speed to YC is interesting because it makes CA more of a threat to YC which has no counter other than YA and YS. It's also lightly armored, so I don't know why it would be as slow as HC, but that's how it was in STW v1.12. There is a speed inbetween HC and YC where CA could be placed which is another possibility. HC and NC are 20/22 (run/charge) speed, and YC is 24/26. The only difference here from STW v1.12 is that charge is +2 run. I never understood why cav run speed and charge speed were the same in STW v1.12. Placing the CA at 22/24 (run/charge) would make it about 10% slower than a YC, and give YC a chance of catching CA if they gave chase. For comparison, chiv knights are 20/22 and alan merc 24/26 in MTW.


Spacecadet,

Don't base your final opinion on STWmod on the stat that comes with the beta 5. The no-dachi run speed is too high, the nag cav is rather weak and cav charge values are much higher and cav melee stats reduced from what they were in STW v1.12. The guns are not right either.

[Dionysus9]

There is a speed inbetween HC and YC where CA could be placed which is another possibility.

I havent had much chance to tinker with the STWmod yet, but I think that may be the solution. Lahll has a good point that if cav archers are too fast, they can not be countered. I dont think YA and YS are a counter to them, because they can get right up close to YA and shoot them to death--at least till they run out of ammo.

I am somewhat torn between having cav archers that can be caught and cav archers that cant. On one hand, from a realism perspective, the whole idea of cav archers is to NOT get caught. Thus, when a general is training cav archers he will want to arm them very lightly and give them fast horses; not necessarily strong or brave horses, but fast ones.

Then again, this same general knows that at times he will have to face cav archers, so he will want to have some very fast light cav that can catch them. And he will also want some very fast cav for other uses on the battlefield (breaking up ranged units that stray too far from their spears, etc.)

The question is, as a Sengoku general-- would you give your fastest horses to the cav archers, or to the light cavalry (YC)?

I think the answer is fairly clear--First, I think you will not "waste" your fastest horses on a unit that is likely to stand around and get shot at for at least part of the battle. Cav archers may have to stand and trade shots with other cav archers, or foot archers, and I wouldn't want to risk my fastest cav in that role.

The fastest cav deserves to die at full speed, galloping headlong to doom or glory-- meeting its fate either at the impact of a charge or driving forward into a hail of bullets. High quality cavalry that dies standing around like a pin cushion or running away (skirmishing) is wasted.

So, I think, if I had a pool of available mounts and I was in charge of deciding which horses my units would receive as mounts, I would give fast low quality (low strength, skittish, etc., but fast) cavalry to my cav archers, I would give the very fastest cav, medium in quality, to my light cavalrymen, and I would give my slowest, strongest, bravest mounts to the heavy cavalry corps.

That maximizes the battlefield value that you are getting out of each steed and ensures that each unit has what it needs to do its job. The cav archers can easily outrun the heavy cav, but they need protection from light cav.

I think it would make for a fine balance.

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

I did make that change to cav archers. So it's now HC and NC at 20 run, CA at 22 and YC at 24. NC has the highest morale (8), HC is next(6), YC is next (4) and CA is lowest (2). The CA has 0.4 accuracy and the SA 0.6 just as they did in STW v1.12. There is a slight possibility that all the cav should be 2 points less in morale. I'm going to wait for feedback from players on that.

So, the YC can catch the CA, but it's not going to do so as quickly as it could in STW v1.12. CA will be an annoyance to NC since it's faster than NC. The cav prices are now HC (1200), NC (900), YC (900) and CA (800). We are trying to keep costs in multiples of 100 so that's why YC isn't 950 and CA 850. The monk is moved back to 1000 (2x the original 500).


Tera,

I always thought of the no-dachi as the flanking inf unit. It was often given an honor upgrade in STW v1.12 and used in a more frontal fashion. We made it a little less expensive in STWmod. At 500 you can give it a valor upgrade which will make it a 5 combat point unit for 850. The monk is a 7 combat point unit costing 1000. I don't think this makes STWmod a NC/WM/ND rush game. Without an upgrade it's only got a net 3 combat points compared to the 2 combat points of the YS for 400. If it's a problem we'll put the ND back to 600, but right now it doesn't look like it will get used if it costs 600.

The Japanese teppo in STWmod is weaker than the musket in MI v1.03. We're talking no more than 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley on YS at max range. The reload is the same as muskets in STW v1.12, i.e. 21 seconds (7 seconds for 3 rank revolving fire). The Portuguese teppo comes in at 9 kills for 10 volleys on YS, and that is exactly the same as muskets in STW v1.12. Neither gun type fires in the rain. Right now guns have ammo = 20. That's 7 minutes of firing to use it all. Guns had ammo = 40 in STW v1.12. I don't know if players want that much ammo. Archers have 36 arrows. In MTW, dead men take their ammo with them. In STW v1.12, ammo was 28, but it was redistributed from the dead to the men still alive in the unit. So in a shoot out where you are taking losses, the 36 arrows in STWmod could easliy be less total arrows fired than in STW v1.12. This is going to affect guns in the same way, and maybe the 20 ammo is a little light. However, it does give another tactical consideration if there is the possibility of running out of ammo during the battle.

Archers and teppo have the same range in STWmod. Archers and muskets had the same range in STW v1.12 as far as I can tell. We never actually saw the projectile stat for STW v1.12, but we did for WE/MI and they were the same range (5000 = 2.5 tiles = 100 meters). Arquebusiers did have less range (4000), but they are not modelled in STWmod.

If NC is too strong at 900 we may have to raise the price to 1000 or possibly drop the charge to 6. Right now NC have the biggest impact with 8 + 4 = 12 charge. That's better than HC with 6 + 2 = 8 and YC with 8 + 2 = 10. YC vs HC, NC or CA will have 8 + 2 + 4 = 14 charge.

The STWmod is set for 10k. If someone takes a rush army of 4 each NC/WM/ND that will cost 9600 leaving 400 to spare. A counter army to that could be 4 each YS/HC/SA for 8400 leaving 1600 which could buy 2 CA or 2 NI or 4 guns or 3 guns and 1 WM or 2 guns and 2 ND etc.

[Krasturak]

The Japanese teppo in STWmod is weaker than the musket in MI v1.03. We're talking no more than 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley on YS at max range. The reload is the same as muskets in STW v1.12, i.e. 21 seconds (7 seconds for 3 rank revolving fire). The Portuguese teppo comes in at 9 kills for 10 volleys on YS, and that is exactly the same as muskets in STW v1.12. Neither gun type fires in the rain. Right now guns have ammo = 20. That's 7 minutes of firing to use it all. Guns had ammo = 40 in STW v1.12. I don't know if players want that much ammo. Archers have 36 arrows. In MTW, dead men take their ammo with them. In STW v1.12, ammo was 28, but it was redistributed from the dead to the men still alive in the unit. So in a shoot out where you are taking losses, the 36 arrows in STWmod could easliy be less total arrows fired than in STW v1.12. This is going to affect guns in the same way, and maybe the 20 ammo is a little light. However, it does give another tactical consideration if there is the possibility of running out of ammo during the battle.

and

4) Guns ammo is 20. In STW v1.12, it was 40. If 20 ammo is found to be too low we can increase it. I haven't run out of ammo in any of the test battles.

5) Archer ammo is 36. In STW v1.12, it was 28.

I thought the guns should have more ammunition than the archers.

The slower rate of fire for the guns, and the higher kill rate for the archers (at least against the poorly-armoured), make the archers superior in the short run -- and they should be.

But if you give the guns less ammunition than the archers, I think it's cutting them down too far. I'm not sure why you want to change this value.

It's much easier to carry 36 paper cartridges than to carry 36 arrows.

I always liked using guns, mostly for the morale effect on opposing players, rather than on the troops, where the archers are more effective at killing.

But anyhow, that's just my $0.02.

-----------

Let me also say I've always respected your work, Yuuki, and I'm most pleased to see you involved in this project. You have my trust.

[Dionysus9]

Dion,

I did make that change to cav archers. So it's now HC and NC at 20 run, CA at 22 and YC at 24. NC has the highest morale (8), HC is next(6), YC is next (4) and CA is lowest (2). The CA has 0.4 accuracy and the SA 0.6 just as they did in STW v1.12. There is a slight possibility that all the cav should be 2 points less in morale. I'm going to wait for feedback from players on that.

So, the YC can catch the CA, but it's not going to do so as quickly as it could in STW v1.12. CA will be an annoyance to NC since it's faster than NC. The cav prices are now HC (1200), NC (900), YC (900) and CA (800). We are trying to keep costs in multiples of 100 so that's why YC isn't 950 and CA 850. The monk is moved back to 1000 (2x the original 500).

That sounds like a nice, rich balance and I'm looking forward to doing some testing.

[Clips]

One question, are you making the mod so you can still play the orginal 4 era's in VI (Early, High, Late and Viking) so its more like an extension mod, or will it be liek nepolian where you add it play it, then take it off to be able to play the original 4 eras?

[Tera]

Thanks for the replies Yuuki, very helpful, some questions:

1. From what I gathered, the japanese teppo in STWmod will be 50% more powerful than the original musket in STW1.12, yet still very much inferior to the musket in MI 1.02. Isn't that more or less the power of the musket in MI 1.03? I wish to see them in action.

2. Archers. In STW1.12, archers were weaker than in MI 1.02, at least in practice. One of the good things in MI 1.02 was that archers could really be used effectively together with guns, and they complimented each other. Archers had a better range,higher rate of fire and could do massive damage to low-armour units (like WM and ND). Guns were morale shooters and although having a slower rate of fire did massive damage to practically any unit. Cavalry-Archers as shooters were also very powerful in MI 1.02, which increased their value. CA-heavy armies were a rarity in STW1.12 but became almost a standard in MI 1.02. They were immensely useful.How are archers implimented in STWmod?

3. I'm worried about the No-Dachi. In STW 1.12, there was place for the ND in most armies along with WM because there was no NC, HC was less useful than in MI and YC didn't beat them and/or wasn't as good "allround" as ND. In STWmod, you're saying that HC, NC and YC will all beat no-dachi. Where is the place for the no-dachi then? Warrior Monks are a much better choice as shock-infantry and in STW1.12 high-valoured ND still weren't as strong as WM - unlike in MI 1.02 where everyone took high-honoured no-dachi instead of WM.

If I want to beat HC, I take YC or YS.
If I want to beat WM, I take HC.
If I want to beat NI, I take WM.
If I want to beat NC, I take HC, YC, WM and YS.

The NI is at least a tank-unit with high defense, the no-dachi has low armour and low defense. Where is its place?

4. In MI 1.02, at least from my tests, HC still beat YC and lost only to YS while still being the most expensive unit. Since WM were poor in 1.02, the HC needed this power to still be useful. In STWmod, the YC beats HC. This is a good thing as long as HC is still useful, so make sure that only the HC can beat WM, and that NC doesn't offer a better solution most times. The NC is an offensive cav-type, which should beat most infantry types excluding spears and warrior monks. In any case, NC should have higher morale and higher attack, so it's still extremely useful in most cases. STW depended MUCH, MUCH more on shock than MTW. I wish to see if in practice NC is still the better option by a large margin...or not.

Thx

Tera

[Krasturak]

The NI is at least a tank-unit with high defense, the no-dachi has low armour and low defense. Where is its place?

Gah!

It's place is ... cutting heads off!

Gah!

[Tera]

Thanks for the replies Yuuki.

RE: the ND. What about the difference in speed, armour and charge between the ND and the WM? I was worried about the No-Dachi being left out of most armies since people might be better off having a mixed cavalry army together with WM, YS and guns/archers as mainstay. The no-dachi will no longer be a replacement for the WM, its use will be more limited to a flanking role. This is a a good thing, thanks for pointing out your intentions. However, I wish to know if the no-dachi has enough qualities to actually be used effectively: any unit especially WM and cavalry can be used for flanking effectively anyway. If I recall correctly, in one of the patches you've constructed, the armour of the WM was reduced. That's why I asked that question about S, A and C earlier on. With playtesting this issue will become clearer. Naginata were very useful in STW 1.12, but their use was limited and few people actually took them. I don't want any unit, including ND, to suffer the same fate, although not every unit can be as versatile as WM or HC.

Thx

[Puzz3D]

STWmod isn't based on MI gameplay. The units all have their STW v1.12 stats with a few exceptions:

1) Cavalry charge speeds are +2 their run speed. In STW v1.12, charge speed was equal to the run speed. Not a big deal if players want charge speed = run speed, but seems more appropriate to me for it to be higher. MTW/VI cav all have higher charge than run speed.

2) HC has 6 charge. In STW v1.12 it had 5 charge. I think it needs the +1 charge to help it vs WM.

3) CA run speed is 22. In STW v1.12, it was 20.

4) Guns ammo is 20. In STW v1.12, it was 40. If 20 ammo is found to be too low we can increase it. I haven't run out of ammo in any of the test battles.

5) Archer ammo is 36. In STW v1.12, it was 28.

6) HC, YC, CA, YA and NI have +2 morale more than they had in STW v1.12. Units were purchased at honor 2 in STW v1.12 which gave them +4 morale. We buy units at valor 0 in STWmod, but MTW/VI has a hidden +2 morale. So this brings the units up to the morale level they were in STW v1.12. The NC, WM and ND are already morale 8 units and don't seem to need more. The YS may also have to receive the +2 morale boost.

7) Japanese teppo are 50% more accurate than the muskets of STW v1.12. I was a little but concerned about this unit, but it doesn't seem overpowered in the test battles. In an online test battle of 8 YS attacking 8 Japanese teppo, the YS won.


WM and ND have the same speed characteristics walk/run/charge of 7/12/12. The charge/attack/defend/armor/morale are:

WM = 4/5/2/1/8 cost = 1000
ND = 8/5/-2/2/8 cost = 500

In a battle where CBR took 4 WM and 4 ND he got kills/losses:

WM = 53/4, 68/19, 57/32, 51/50 Average = 57/26
ND = 26/24, 14/16, 0/9, 29/46 Average = 17/15

The difference in melee combat points is 7 - 3 = 4. That is 2x better chance to kill for the WM and the unit costs are in a ratio of 2 to 1, but in this battle the ND didn't achive that ratio in kills. It's only one battle, but in the long run I think the ND will do half as well as the WM.

[Tera]

Thanks again for the replies, I guess we'll see how it turns out on the battlefield in the long-run but it seems good statistically.

Krast! :) Gun battles in STW/MI normally resolved themselves before ammo was out due to the destructive power of both muskets and archers. In STWmod, the ammo was reduced considerably and now dead soldiers take the ammo with them. Ammo will be an issue as it will go very low in the engagement phase of the battle.

Whereas in STW1.12 your guns were active until the very end of the battle and you never assumed otherwise...now you have to take into account tactical considerations when using your precious musket unit. We shall see when we play it.

[baz]

I look forward to playing this, let me know when people are playing .. times and dates etc .. if i am welcome of course ;)

One element that i feel has been lost from STW->MTW is the skirmising between cav and missiles. This was a massive part of the battle im STW/MI. When playing STW/MI you were willing to take loses to your cav in order to try and rout the enemy missiles. This was because once you had an advantage in the missile exchange over the enemy, you knew they were taking more loses than you and while this was happening the odds of you winning the final melee were increasing by each extra kill. Basically the cav loses were outweighed by the missile advantage.

However, in MTW/VI i felt that the loses were not worthwhile due to the smaller advantage that having superior ranged bought you. I believe that if missiles, guns in particular, are too weak then again we will loose this skirmising before melee which was present in first release. This is unless you used to find the bit in MTW interesting where we all line up and shoot for half an hour? Basically the loses are not outweighed by the missile advantage, hence the prolonged static stand offs which are extremely common in MTW/VI.

This is of course just my opinion i am not sure if others saw this change in tactic from STW-> MTW

Of course i understand that in MTW/VI the missiles were a lot less vulnerable to cav (agreed?) and that will not be the case here. I just wanted to point out that some players may find that stronger guns also bring a different tactical element to the game. It is a fine balance between making guns strong enough to make them worth sacrificing a little cav for, but not making them too strong, so that they alone decide the outcome of the battle. Good Luck!

Furthermore, poor archers also contributed to this situation found in MTW/VI, how do archers fair against guns in this mod compared to other releases?

In respect to Tera's comments about the ND ..
Tera and I tested the ND extensively in MI 1.02 and we both used it in our comp armies as a result, basically ND's were better value for koku than WM's. Just as WM were better value for koku, by a greater margin, than ND's in 1.12 ("monk rusher" comes to mind). This is a difficult job and perhaps the lower armour of the warrior monk may prove to be the balancing act between the two units. I am interested to know how this armour difference relates to kills per volley by missiles.

In summary this looks to be a great project and i really do look forward to playing it.

[Puzz3D]

Baz,

The effect of armor on archers is linear in the 1 to 8. I actually have some measurements for a1, a2 and a3. For 60 man archer volleys as the attacker, I got

3.3 kills per volley on armor 1 (WM)
1.8 kills per volley on armor 2 (ND)
1.3 kills per volley on armor 3 (YS)

that would extrapolate out to

0.9 kills per volley on armor 4
0.7 kills per volley on armor 5 (NI)

Kills on cav would be higher because they are a larger target.

In a shootout with the archer in double line vs the gun in 3 ranks, on flat ground, fine day, just inside max range and the gun going into loose after a few volleys, at the point the archer runs out of ammo,

SA gets about 30 kills and suffers 15 losses vs Portuguese teppo
SA gets about 20 kills and suffers 20 losses vs Japanese teppo

The archer uses all of it's ammo in 1 minute 24 seconds. The gun will still have 60% (12 rounds) of ammo left. Using an SA costing 500 in a shootout with teppos costing 200 and 300 is not really a cost effective way to use an archer, but you might do it to weaken guns a bit before a frontal assault. If you can get an archer shooting a monk or a cav unit, it can do some very cost effective damage. For instance, you can earn back the SA's cost of 500 with 10 volleys on a warrior monk leaving the SA with 16 arrows still to use, and that only takes 40 seconds of shooting.

CBR and I measured a 20% increase in effectiveness of archers if they are the defender in a battle. Krypta and I went back and measured them in STW v1.12, and measured the same difference. So, that difference has been there all along in the series. The guns show no difference between attacking and defending.

The cav skirmishing vs missles is back in the gameplay. Cav archers have less accuracy just as they did in STW v1.12 so frontal skirmishing with archers or guns is costly, but if you can get around on the side or get a height advantage they can be effective. CA is armor 3 and SA is armor 1, so there is a chance to do some damage there.

The 2v2 and 1v1 test battles have all lasted about 15 minutes. Gun ammo hasn't run out in these games.

[Cheetah]

Where can you download the latest version of this mod?

Just a side note, I love the balance of MI 1.02 imho muskets were not too powerful at all, it was perfect. Anyway, I have never played the original STW 1.12 stats so looking forward for some happy head hunting

[Clips]

btw about what i was saying about the mod being just an addition to projectile stats, excuse this comment i am thinking of the kenshin mod which works like this and ive got this now so no worries.

[Puzz3D]

A set of 25 original STW maps is available for download now. They are retextured, but the contours are unchanged and the trees and objects are as close to the original maps as possible. Unzip them into the \battle\maps folder which is under your main MTW/VI game folder. These maps are all prefixed with STW_ so they will appear together in the hosting list.

[Jochi Khan]

Maps downloaded and installed.
Run a SP , everything ok.

Now all I need to do is get the sounds working heh.
Still can't gt the MTW folder to populate

Jochi