STW mod

[Tera]

Thanks for this, really looking forward to play - However I have the italian version of VI on an english version of MTW - is this a problem??

BTW, I think the Naginata Cavalry was the missing piece in STW cavalry, which use was quite limited. However, NC were overpowering: both YC and HC beat them but in real terms against infantry and guns the NC was the natural choice. There wasn't a real difference between NC killing a no-dachi and a HC killing one, in fact probably the NC would kill it faster although the HC would lose a few men less.

How did you balance it out?

[CBR]

Upgrades were too cheap in STW/MI and AFAIK 8k-10k was the standard in MI and that allowed lots of upgrades to be bought.

In this mod lesser units can no longer be upgraded to make them better compared to more expensive units. And you dont have enough money to just buy the most expensive units. NC are cheaper than HC but not as good.


CBR

[spacecadet]

Yuuki / CBR,
Is there a latest build thats available for testing (where is this "STWmod beta 5")? I know a few other peeps (Wolves )that wanna give this a go.

Space

ps ah just saw that link above.

[Puzz3D]

Thanks for this, really looking forward to play - However I have the italian version of VI on an english version of MTW - is this a problem??

BTW, I think the Naginata Cavalry was the missing piece in STW cavalry, which use was quite limited. However, NC were overpowering: both YC and HC beat them but in real terms against infantry and guns the NC was the natural choice. There wasn't a real difference between NC killing a no-dachi and a HC killing one, in fact probably the NC would kill it faster although the HC would lose a few men less.

How did you balance it out?

I don't think barocca's STWmod writes over any language files.

HC (1200 florins, 2/6 att/def) beat WM (1100, 5/2) in STWmod. YC (1000, 2/3 + 4/0 anti-cav = 6/3) beat HC. NC (900, 4/2) loose to HC, YC, WM and YS (400, 0/2 + 4/4 anti-cav = 4/6). ND (600, 5/-2) will loose to HC, NC and YC. NI (800, 0/6) will loose to HC and NC, but will beat YC. So, the YC fits inbetween the ND and NI while the NC fits inbetween the NI and WM. We can use the cav charge to fine tune things. As it stands right now, the NC may be doing a bit too good vs the WM. We could take some off the NC charge to place it more equally between the NI and WM. Alternatively, we could increase the NC cost to 1000. That would leave room to increase the cost of NI to 900 as it might be too good at 800 considering that the WM is 1100 rather than 1000. I was also thinking of moving the NC from 4/2 to 3/3 since it has more armor than a YC so you would think that armor would help its defensive capability. However, it's a faster infantry killer at 4/2 so that distinguishes it more from the HC. It would still be a faster killer at 3/3, but only 20% faster than HC.

Into all of this we have to place the CA (900, 1/2). Right now it's set at 2/1, equal in speed to YC and has 1 more charge than it had in STW v1.12. The charge is still pretty weak even with that extra point. I think it does have to go back to 1/2 (att/def), but equal speed to YC is interesting because it makes CA more of a threat to YC which has no counter other than YA and YS. It's also lightly armored, so I don't know why it would be as slow as HC, but that's how it was in STW v1.12. There is a speed inbetween HC and YC where CA could be placed which is another possibility. HC and NC are 20/22 (run/charge) speed, and YC is 24/26. The only difference here from STW v1.12 is that charge is +2 run. I never understood why cav run speed and charge speed were the same in STW v1.12. Placing the CA at 22/24 (run/charge) would make it about 10% slower than a YC, and give YC a chance of catching CA if they gave chase. For comparison, chiv knights are 20/22 and alan merc 24/26 in MTW.


Spacecadet,

Don't base your final opinion on STWmod on the stat that comes with the beta 5. The no-dachi run speed is too high, the nag cav is rather weak and cav charge values are much higher and cav melee stats reduced from what they were in STW v1.12. The guns are not right either.

[Dionysus9]

There is a speed inbetween HC and YC where CA could be placed which is another possibility.

I havent had much chance to tinker with the STWmod yet, but I think that may be the solution. Lahll has a good point that if cav archers are too fast, they can not be countered. I dont think YA and YS are a counter to them, because they can get right up close to YA and shoot them to death--at least till they run out of ammo.

I am somewhat torn between having cav archers that can be caught and cav archers that cant. On one hand, from a realism perspective, the whole idea of cav archers is to NOT get caught. Thus, when a general is training cav archers he will want to arm them very lightly and give them fast horses; not necessarily strong or brave horses, but fast ones.

Then again, this same general knows that at times he will have to face cav archers, so he will want to have some very fast light cav that can catch them. And he will also want some very fast cav for other uses on the battlefield (breaking up ranged units that stray too far from their spears, etc.)

The question is, as a Sengoku general-- would you give your fastest horses to the cav archers, or to the light cavalry (YC)?

I think the answer is fairly clear--First, I think you will not "waste" your fastest horses on a unit that is likely to stand around and get shot at for at least part of the battle. Cav archers may have to stand and trade shots with other cav archers, or foot archers, and I wouldn't want to risk my fastest cav in that role.

The fastest cav deserves to die at full speed, galloping headlong to doom or glory-- meeting its fate either at the impact of a charge or driving forward into a hail of bullets. High quality cavalry that dies standing around like a pin cushion or running away (skirmishing) is wasted.

So, I think, if I had a pool of available mounts and I was in charge of deciding which horses my units would receive as mounts, I would give fast low quality (low strength, skittish, etc., but fast) cavalry to my cav archers, I would give the very fastest cav, medium in quality, to my light cavalrymen, and I would give my slowest, strongest, bravest mounts to the heavy cavalry corps.

That maximizes the battlefield value that you are getting out of each steed and ensures that each unit has what it needs to do its job. The cav archers can easily outrun the heavy cav, but they need protection from light cav.

I think it would make for a fine balance.

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

I did make that change to cav archers. So it's now HC and NC at 20 run, CA at 22 and YC at 24. NC has the highest morale (8), HC is next(6), YC is next (4) and CA is lowest (2). The CA has 0.4 accuracy and the SA 0.6 just as they did in STW v1.12. There is a slight possibility that all the cav should be 2 points less in morale. I'm going to wait for feedback from players on that.

So, the YC can catch the CA, but it's not going to do so as quickly as it could in STW v1.12. CA will be an annoyance to NC since it's faster than NC. The cav prices are now HC (1200), NC (900), YC (900) and CA (800). We are trying to keep costs in multiples of 100 so that's why YC isn't 950 and CA 850. The monk is moved back to 1000 (2x the original 500).


Tera,

I always thought of the no-dachi as the flanking inf unit. It was often given an honor upgrade in STW v1.12 and used in a more frontal fashion. We made it a little less expensive in STWmod. At 500 you can give it a valor upgrade which will make it a 5 combat point unit for 850. The monk is a 7 combat point unit costing 1000. I don't think this makes STWmod a NC/WM/ND rush game. Without an upgrade it's only got a net 3 combat points compared to the 2 combat points of the YS for 400. If it's a problem we'll put the ND back to 600, but right now it doesn't look like it will get used if it costs 600.

The Japanese teppo in STWmod is weaker than the musket in MI v1.03. We're talking no more than 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley on YS at max range. The reload is the same as muskets in STW v1.12, i.e. 21 seconds (7 seconds for 3 rank revolving fire). The Portuguese teppo comes in at 9 kills for 10 volleys on YS, and that is exactly the same as muskets in STW v1.12. Neither gun type fires in the rain. Right now guns have ammo = 20. That's 7 minutes of firing to use it all. Guns had ammo = 40 in STW v1.12. I don't know if players want that much ammo. Archers have 36 arrows. In MTW, dead men take their ammo with them. In STW v1.12, ammo was 28, but it was redistributed from the dead to the men still alive in the unit. So in a shoot out where you are taking losses, the 36 arrows in STWmod could easliy be less total arrows fired than in STW v1.12. This is going to affect guns in the same way, and maybe the 20 ammo is a little light. However, it does give another tactical consideration if there is the possibility of running out of ammo during the battle.

Archers and teppo have the same range in STWmod. Archers and muskets had the same range in STW v1.12 as far as I can tell. We never actually saw the projectile stat for STW v1.12, but we did for WE/MI and they were the same range (5000 = 2.5 tiles = 100 meters). Arquebusiers did have less range (4000), but they are not modelled in STWmod.

If NC is too strong at 900 we may have to raise the price to 1000 or possibly drop the charge to 6. Right now NC have the biggest impact with 8 + 4 = 12 charge. That's better than HC with 6 + 2 = 8 and YC with 8 + 2 = 10. YC vs HC, NC or CA will have 8 + 2 + 4 = 14 charge.

The STWmod is set for 10k. If someone takes a rush army of 4 each NC/WM/ND that will cost 9600 leaving 400 to spare. A counter army to that could be 4 each YS/HC/SA for 8400 leaving 1600 which could buy 2 CA or 2 NI or 4 guns or 3 guns and 1 WM or 2 guns and 2 ND etc.

[Krasturak]

The Japanese teppo in STWmod is weaker than the musket in MI v1.03. We're talking no more than 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley on YS at max range. The reload is the same as muskets in STW v1.12, i.e. 21 seconds (7 seconds for 3 rank revolving fire). The Portuguese teppo comes in at 9 kills for 10 volleys on YS, and that is exactly the same as muskets in STW v1.12. Neither gun type fires in the rain. Right now guns have ammo = 20. That's 7 minutes of firing to use it all. Guns had ammo = 40 in STW v1.12. I don't know if players want that much ammo. Archers have 36 arrows. In MTW, dead men take their ammo with them. In STW v1.12, ammo was 28, but it was redistributed from the dead to the men still alive in the unit. So in a shoot out where you are taking losses, the 36 arrows in STWmod could easliy be less total arrows fired than in STW v1.12. This is going to affect guns in the same way, and maybe the 20 ammo is a little light. However, it does give another tactical consideration if there is the possibility of running out of ammo during the battle.

and

4) Guns ammo is 20. In STW v1.12, it was 40. If 20 ammo is found to be too low we can increase it. I haven't run out of ammo in any of the test battles.

5) Archer ammo is 36. In STW v1.12, it was 28.

I thought the guns should have more ammunition than the archers.

The slower rate of fire for the guns, and the higher kill rate for the archers (at least against the poorly-armoured), make the archers superior in the short run -- and they should be.

But if you give the guns less ammunition than the archers, I think it's cutting them down too far. I'm not sure why you want to change this value.

It's much easier to carry 36 paper cartridges than to carry 36 arrows.

I always liked using guns, mostly for the morale effect on opposing players, rather than on the troops, where the archers are more effective at killing.

But anyhow, that's just my $0.02.

-----------

Let me also say I've always respected your work, Yuuki, and I'm most pleased to see you involved in this project. You have my trust.

[Dionysus9]

Dion,

I did make that change to cav archers. So it's now HC and NC at 20 run, CA at 22 and YC at 24. NC has the highest morale (8), HC is next(6), YC is next (4) and CA is lowest (2). The CA has 0.4 accuracy and the SA 0.6 just as they did in STW v1.12. There is a slight possibility that all the cav should be 2 points less in morale. I'm going to wait for feedback from players on that.

So, the YC can catch the CA, but it's not going to do so as quickly as it could in STW v1.12. CA will be an annoyance to NC since it's faster than NC. The cav prices are now HC (1200), NC (900), YC (900) and CA (800). We are trying to keep costs in multiples of 100 so that's why YC isn't 950 and CA 850. The monk is moved back to 1000 (2x the original 500).

That sounds like a nice, rich balance and I'm looking forward to doing some testing.

[IrishMike]

I would just like to say that if your looking for interest, you have mine. Sadly I missed out on shogun, so I can't ask any technical qestions and I can provide no help, but I am incridible interested in this mod, and I eagerly await your revisions to original mod to be released.

Cheers from me, and keep up the work!

[Puzz3D]

Thanks for the interest.

We now have a stat that plays well, but I have an idea that would bring army purchase closer to the way it worked in original STW v1.12. Right now in STWmod you purchase units in MP and custom at valor 0, and they are usable at valor 0. To effect that is was necessary to add +2 morale to the low and middle morale units. So, you are able to play without upgrades. There is no way to go lower in morale since you are already at valor 0.

In STW v1.12, units were purchased at honor 2 which is the equivalent of valor 1 in MTW/VI due to the hidden +2 morale of MTW/VI. The honor 2 gave units +4 morale, and the valor 1 gives +2 morale in addition to the hidden +2 morale for a total of +4 morale. The extra +1 att and +1 def that honor 2 was giving in STW over valor 1 in MTW/VI will cancel out since all units get it. Honor only cost 40% in STW while valor costs 70% in MTW. A single valor upgrade in STWmod will cost about the same as a double honor upgrade in STW, so the idea is to price the units in STWmod MP and custom battle at x/1.7, and take away the morale boost we gave to the low and middle morale units. In this way, units purchased at valor 1 in STWmod would be equivalent to units purchased at honor 2 in STW, and players would be able to sell off 1 valor point on some units to get money for upgrades on other units. You could also play low money games as was done in STW, but can only get -2 morale rather than the -4 you could get in STW.

Some testing is going to be required on this to make sure it doesn't break the game because you will be getting a lot of money selling off 1 valor on some units. For instance, using a WM at valor 0 will save 411, and a double valor upgrade on a YA will only cost 378. The v0 WM will still function well because it has morale 8, and will be 2 combat points (40%) less powerful than a v1 WM. The v3 YA will pick up 4 combat points, 100% more powerful, and 4 morale points over a v1 YA. The v3 YA is not a super unitwith 4 combat points and 2 morale, but you did gain more than you lost by making that trade off with the WM. It's probably ok because it's the about the same as you could do in original STW v1.12. I also want to be sure that a v0 HC at 705 doesn't obsolete a v1 NC at 900.

None of this will affect STWmod's SP campaign since that has it's own set of unit costs.

If anyone has an opinion on this idea, I'll be glad to listen to your comments.

[Clips]

One question, are you making the mod so you can still play the orginal 4 era's in VI (Early, High, Late and Viking) so its more like an extension mod, or will it be liek nepolian where you add it play it, then take it off to be able to play the original 4 eras?

[L'Impresario]

You can still play the other eras, you just need to use a single program that will switch between the projectile stats of the mod and VI..that 'll take you about 3 secs each time:-)

BTW I 've come to hate the empire tourney .gif, it takes ages to load a page that contains it heh ;-)

[Clips]

Cheers alex, yeh thats easy so there is no way of getting both to work at same time, i mean so being able to play normal VI yet have the option of an extra era being Shoggy style, without conflictions between other players online who dont have this mod in the normal era's?
If you see what im saying, hope you do hehe. I would like not have to chnage anything if possible, is there no way or merging the Shoggy projectile stats with the normal VI ones to form 1?