STW mod

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

I did make that change to cav archers. So it's now HC and NC at 20 run, CA at 22 and YC at 24. NC has the highest morale (8), HC is next(6), YC is next (4) and CA is lowest (2). The CA has 0.4 accuracy and the SA 0.6 just as they did in STW v1.12. There is a slight possibility that all the cav should be 2 points less in morale. I'm going to wait for feedback from players on that.

So, the YC can catch the CA, but it's not going to do so as quickly as it could in STW v1.12. CA will be an annoyance to NC since it's faster than NC. The cav prices are now HC (1200), NC (900), YC (900) and CA (800). We are trying to keep costs in multiples of 100 so that's why YC isn't 950 and CA 850. The monk is moved back to 1000 (2x the original 500).


Tera,

I always thought of the no-dachi as the flanking inf unit. It was often given an honor upgrade in STW v1.12 and used in a more frontal fashion. We made it a little less expensive in STWmod. At 500 you can give it a valor upgrade which will make it a 5 combat point unit for 850. The monk is a 7 combat point unit costing 1000. I don't think this makes STWmod a NC/WM/ND rush game. Without an upgrade it's only got a net 3 combat points compared to the 2 combat points of the YS for 400. If it's a problem we'll put the ND back to 600, but right now it doesn't look like it will get used if it costs 600.

The Japanese teppo in STWmod is weaker than the musket in MI v1.03. We're talking no more than 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley on YS at max range. The reload is the same as muskets in STW v1.12, i.e. 21 seconds (7 seconds for 3 rank revolving fire). The Portuguese teppo comes in at 9 kills for 10 volleys on YS, and that is exactly the same as muskets in STW v1.12. Neither gun type fires in the rain. Right now guns have ammo = 20. That's 7 minutes of firing to use it all. Guns had ammo = 40 in STW v1.12. I don't know if players want that much ammo. Archers have 36 arrows. In MTW, dead men take their ammo with them. In STW v1.12, ammo was 28, but it was redistributed from the dead to the men still alive in the unit. So in a shoot out where you are taking losses, the 36 arrows in STWmod could easliy be less total arrows fired than in STW v1.12. This is going to affect guns in the same way, and maybe the 20 ammo is a little light. However, it does give another tactical consideration if there is the possibility of running out of ammo during the battle.

Archers and teppo have the same range in STWmod. Archers and muskets had the same range in STW v1.12 as far as I can tell. We never actually saw the projectile stat for STW v1.12, but we did for WE/MI and they were the same range (5000 = 2.5 tiles = 100 meters). Arquebusiers did have less range (4000), but they are not modelled in STWmod.

If NC is too strong at 900 we may have to raise the price to 1000 or possibly drop the charge to 6. Right now NC have the biggest impact with 8 + 4 = 12 charge. That's better than HC with 6 + 2 = 8 and YC with 8 + 2 = 10. YC vs HC, NC or CA will have 8 + 2 + 4 = 14 charge.

The STWmod is set for 10k. If someone takes a rush army of 4 each NC/WM/ND that will cost 9600 leaving 400 to spare. A counter army to that could be 4 each YS/HC/SA for 8400 leaving 1600 which could buy 2 CA or 2 NI or 4 guns or 3 guns and 1 WM or 2 guns and 2 ND etc.

[Krasturak]

The Japanese teppo in STWmod is weaker than the musket in MI v1.03. We're talking no more than 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley on YS at max range. The reload is the same as muskets in STW v1.12, i.e. 21 seconds (7 seconds for 3 rank revolving fire). The Portuguese teppo comes in at 9 kills for 10 volleys on YS, and that is exactly the same as muskets in STW v1.12. Neither gun type fires in the rain. Right now guns have ammo = 20. That's 7 minutes of firing to use it all. Guns had ammo = 40 in STW v1.12. I don't know if players want that much ammo. Archers have 36 arrows. In MTW, dead men take their ammo with them. In STW v1.12, ammo was 28, but it was redistributed from the dead to the men still alive in the unit. So in a shoot out where you are taking losses, the 36 arrows in STWmod could easliy be less total arrows fired than in STW v1.12. This is going to affect guns in the same way, and maybe the 20 ammo is a little light. However, it does give another tactical consideration if there is the possibility of running out of ammo during the battle.

and

4) Guns ammo is 20. In STW v1.12, it was 40. If 20 ammo is found to be too low we can increase it. I haven't run out of ammo in any of the test battles.

5) Archer ammo is 36. In STW v1.12, it was 28.

I thought the guns should have more ammunition than the archers.

The slower rate of fire for the guns, and the higher kill rate for the archers (at least against the poorly-armoured), make the archers superior in the short run -- and they should be.

But if you give the guns less ammunition than the archers, I think it's cutting them down too far. I'm not sure why you want to change this value.

It's much easier to carry 36 paper cartridges than to carry 36 arrows.

I always liked using guns, mostly for the morale effect on opposing players, rather than on the troops, where the archers are more effective at killing.

But anyhow, that's just my $0.02.

-----------

Let me also say I've always respected your work, Yuuki, and I'm most pleased to see you involved in this project. You have my trust.

[Dionysus9]

Dion,

I did make that change to cav archers. So it's now HC and NC at 20 run, CA at 22 and YC at 24. NC has the highest morale (8), HC is next(6), YC is next (4) and CA is lowest (2). The CA has 0.4 accuracy and the SA 0.6 just as they did in STW v1.12. There is a slight possibility that all the cav should be 2 points less in morale. I'm going to wait for feedback from players on that.

So, the YC can catch the CA, but it's not going to do so as quickly as it could in STW v1.12. CA will be an annoyance to NC since it's faster than NC. The cav prices are now HC (1200), NC (900), YC (900) and CA (800). We are trying to keep costs in multiples of 100 so that's why YC isn't 950 and CA 850. The monk is moved back to 1000 (2x the original 500).

That sounds like a nice, rich balance and I'm looking forward to doing some testing.

[IrishMike]

I would just like to say that if your looking for interest, you have mine. Sadly I missed out on shogun, so I can't ask any technical qestions and I can provide no help, but I am incridible interested in this mod, and I eagerly await your revisions to original mod to be released.

Cheers from me, and keep up the work!

[Puzz3D]

Thanks for the interest.

We now have a stat that plays well, but I have an idea that would bring army purchase closer to the way it worked in original STW v1.12. Right now in STWmod you purchase units in MP and custom at valor 0, and they are usable at valor 0. To effect that is was necessary to add +2 morale to the low and middle morale units. So, you are able to play without upgrades. There is no way to go lower in morale since you are already at valor 0.

In STW v1.12, units were purchased at honor 2 which is the equivalent of valor 1 in MTW/VI due to the hidden +2 morale of MTW/VI. The honor 2 gave units +4 morale, and the valor 1 gives +2 morale in addition to the hidden +2 morale for a total of +4 morale. The extra +1 att and +1 def that honor 2 was giving in STW over valor 1 in MTW/VI will cancel out since all units get it. Honor only cost 40% in STW while valor costs 70% in MTW. A single valor upgrade in STWmod will cost about the same as a double honor upgrade in STW, so the idea is to price the units in STWmod MP and custom battle at x/1.7, and take away the morale boost we gave to the low and middle morale units. In this way, units purchased at valor 1 in STWmod would be equivalent to units purchased at honor 2 in STW, and players would be able to sell off 1 valor point on some units to get money for upgrades on other units. You could also play low money games as was done in STW, but can only get -2 morale rather than the -4 you could get in STW.

Some testing is going to be required on this to make sure it doesn't break the game because you will be getting a lot of money selling off 1 valor on some units. For instance, using a WM at valor 0 will save 411, and a double valor upgrade on a YA will only cost 378. The v0 WM will still function well because it has morale 8, and will be 2 combat points (40%) less powerful than a v1 WM. The v3 YA will pick up 4 combat points, 100% more powerful, and 4 morale points over a v1 YA. The v3 YA is not a super unitwith 4 combat points and 2 morale, but you did gain more than you lost by making that trade off with the WM. It's probably ok because it's the about the same as you could do in original STW v1.12. I also want to be sure that a v0 HC at 705 doesn't obsolete a v1 NC at 900.

None of this will affect STWmod's SP campaign since that has it's own set of unit costs.

If anyone has an opinion on this idea, I'll be glad to listen to your comments.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Personally, i won't worry too much about trying to replicate STW MP too much - as long as the unit balance at equal valour is about right.

Span.

[Puzz3D]

The goal of this mod is to replicate STW v1.12 gameplay as closely as possible.

[ElmarkOFear]

Then you must include the lag that most games had to REALLY simulate the gameplay! hehe :) Sounds like you guys are doing a nice job. I will make it an option to play any of my STW MP CAMPAIGN battles using this mod. That way, if everyone is so inclined, and can schedule the match within a day or two, they can play it vs. each other, rather than have the AI vs AI battle on my PC. Good luck!

[Clips]

One question, are you making the mod so you can still play the orginal 4 era's in VI (Early, High, Late and Viking) so its more like an extension mod, or will it be liek nepolian where you add it play it, then take it off to be able to play the original 4 eras?

[L'Impresario]

You can still play the other eras, you just need to use a single program that will switch between the projectile stats of the mod and VI..that 'll take you about 3 secs each time:-)

BTW I 've come to hate the empire tourney .gif, it takes ages to load a page that contains it heh ;-)

[Clips]

Cheers alex, yeh thats easy so there is no way of getting both to work at same time, i mean so being able to play normal VI yet have the option of an extra era being Shoggy style, without conflictions between other players online who dont have this mod in the normal era's?
If you see what im saying, hope you do hehe. I would like not have to chnage anything if possible, is there no way or merging the Shoggy projectile stats with the normal VI ones to form 1?

[L'Impresario]

No there can't be two different projectile stat files at the same type, as far as I know (and it really makes sense heh). As I mentioned above, the mod isn't overwriting any files that allow you to play VI, it's just that you need to switch the files, and this is almost automatic, using a programme of 767 bytes ;)
Nothing to worry about, just after a normal game , before you relog, you have to run this thingie (it takes 3.46 secs to be precise).

[Puzz3D]

There wasn't any way to recreate the guns of STW without changing projectiles.txt, and you can't get the original gameplay without those guns. The cavalry archers are also adjusted to have the accuracy of original STW. The game supports multiple unit_prod files as separate eras, but it only supports a single projectiles file, so that one file has to be swapped in and out. It does requite a restart of the game each time you make the swap. Otherwise MTW/VI isn't affected by this STWmod, except that the missing corpses for some of the units in MTW/VI have been fixed. Right now the MTW/VI corpses do not graphically match the samurai units, and I'll see if I can fix that. At least you see corpses now, and you can tell which army they came from by the color. One other benefit to changing the projectiles.txt is that the discounts on upgrades for ranged units has been removed when playing STWmod.

The final testing of this Samurai Wars stat fell through this week except for a few 1v1 battles. I've done the best I can adjusting the kensai and ninja units. The stat can be played anywhere from 5k to 10k per player, but it's going to play most like STW at about 8500. In other words, playing STWmod at 8500 per player will be most like original STW at 5000 per player. A valor 1 unit in STWmod has the same morale as an honor 2 unit in STW, and you can outfit an army with all valor 1 units in STWmod with 8500 just as you could an honor 2 army in STW with 5000. At 8500, you can sell off this valor1 on some units by using them at valor 0 and use the money to upgrade other units just as was done in STW, but the flexibility here is not so great that units can be transformed into a different kind of unit. For instance, you won't be able to upgrade YS to the extent that it defeats WM thereby eliminating the need for swords.

I tested gun/melee combos to make sure they didn't defeat the counter unit. For instance, naginata cav (450) will defeat a gun/no-dachi combo (150 + 250 = 400). Another example, no-dachi with armor upgrade (250 + 87 = 337) will defeat gun/yari samurai combo (150 + 200 = 350). I haven't checked archer/melee combos, but a gun/melee combo may be the most effective counter.

I'll post Samurai Wars as a beta later tonight so people can try it and give some feedback.

[1dread1lahll]

fine fine. how about a link to the latest version plz