STW mod

[Tera]

Thanks for the replies Yuuki.

RE: the ND. What about the difference in speed, armour and charge between the ND and the WM? I was worried about the No-Dachi being left out of most armies since people might be better off having a mixed cavalry army together with WM, YS and guns/archers as mainstay. The no-dachi will no longer be a replacement for the WM, its use will be more limited to a flanking role. This is a a good thing, thanks for pointing out your intentions. However, I wish to know if the no-dachi has enough qualities to actually be used effectively: any unit especially WM and cavalry can be used for flanking effectively anyway. If I recall correctly, in one of the patches you've constructed, the armour of the WM was reduced. That's why I asked that question about S, A and C earlier on. With playtesting this issue will become clearer. Naginata were very useful in STW 1.12, but their use was limited and few people actually took them. I don't want any unit, including ND, to suffer the same fate, although not every unit can be as versatile as WM or HC.

Thx

[Puzz3D]

STWmod isn't based on MI gameplay. The units all have their STW v1.12 stats with a few exceptions:

1) Cavalry charge speeds are +2 their run speed. In STW v1.12, charge speed was equal to the run speed. Not a big deal if players want charge speed = run speed, but seems more appropriate to me for it to be higher. MTW/VI cav all have higher charge than run speed.

2) HC has 6 charge. In STW v1.12 it had 5 charge. I think it needs the +1 charge to help it vs WM.

3) CA run speed is 22. In STW v1.12, it was 20.

4) Guns ammo is 20. In STW v1.12, it was 40. If 20 ammo is found to be too low we can increase it. I haven't run out of ammo in any of the test battles.

5) Archer ammo is 36. In STW v1.12, it was 28.

6) HC, YC, CA, YA and NI have +2 morale more than they had in STW v1.12. Units were purchased at honor 2 in STW v1.12 which gave them +4 morale. We buy units at valor 0 in STWmod, but MTW/VI has a hidden +2 morale. So this brings the units up to the morale level they were in STW v1.12. The NC, WM and ND are already morale 8 units and don't seem to need more. The YS may also have to receive the +2 morale boost.

7) Japanese teppo are 50% more accurate than the muskets of STW v1.12. I was a little but concerned about this unit, but it doesn't seem overpowered in the test battles. In an online test battle of 8 YS attacking 8 Japanese teppo, the YS won.


WM and ND have the same speed characteristics walk/run/charge of 7/12/12. The charge/attack/defend/armor/morale are:

WM = 4/5/2/1/8 cost = 1000
ND = 8/5/-2/2/8 cost = 500

In a battle where CBR took 4 WM and 4 ND he got kills/losses:

WM = 53/4, 68/19, 57/32, 51/50 Average = 57/26
ND = 26/24, 14/16, 0/9, 29/46 Average = 17/15

The difference in melee combat points is 7 - 3 = 4. That is 2x better chance to kill for the WM and the unit costs are in a ratio of 2 to 1, but in this battle the ND didn't achive that ratio in kills. It's only one battle, but in the long run I think the ND will do half as well as the WM.

[Krasturak]

4v4 UPROAR!

Gah! Krypta! Gah!

[Krasturak]

The NI is at least a tank-unit with high defense, the no-dachi has low armour and low defense. Where is its place?

Gah!

It's place is ... cutting heads off!

Gah!

[Krasturak]

The Japanese teppo in STWmod is weaker than the musket in MI v1.03. We're talking no more than 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley on YS at max range. The reload is the same as muskets in STW v1.12, i.e. 21 seconds (7 seconds for 3 rank revolving fire). The Portuguese teppo comes in at 9 kills for 10 volleys on YS, and that is exactly the same as muskets in STW v1.12. Neither gun type fires in the rain. Right now guns have ammo = 20. That's 7 minutes of firing to use it all. Guns had ammo = 40 in STW v1.12. I don't know if players want that much ammo. Archers have 36 arrows. In MTW, dead men take their ammo with them. In STW v1.12, ammo was 28, but it was redistributed from the dead to the men still alive in the unit. So in a shoot out where you are taking losses, the 36 arrows in STWmod could easliy be less total arrows fired than in STW v1.12. This is going to affect guns in the same way, and maybe the 20 ammo is a little light. However, it does give another tactical consideration if there is the possibility of running out of ammo during the battle.

and

4) Guns ammo is 20. In STW v1.12, it was 40. If 20 ammo is found to be too low we can increase it. I haven't run out of ammo in any of the test battles.

5) Archer ammo is 36. In STW v1.12, it was 28.

I thought the guns should have more ammunition than the archers.

The slower rate of fire for the guns, and the higher kill rate for the archers (at least against the poorly-armoured), make the archers superior in the short run -- and they should be.

But if you give the guns less ammunition than the archers, I think it's cutting them down too far. I'm not sure why you want to change this value.

It's much easier to carry 36 paper cartridges than to carry 36 arrows.

I always liked using guns, mostly for the morale effect on opposing players, rather than on the troops, where the archers are more effective at killing.

But anyhow, that's just my $0.02.

-----------

Let me also say I've always respected your work, Yuuki, and I'm most pleased to see you involved in this project. You have my trust.

[Tera]

Thanks again for the replies, I guess we'll see how it turns out on the battlefield in the long-run but it seems good statistically.

Krast! :) Gun battles in STW/MI normally resolved themselves before ammo was out due to the destructive power of both muskets and archers. In STWmod, the ammo was reduced considerably and now dead soldiers take the ammo with them. Ammo will be an issue as it will go very low in the engagement phase of the battle.

Whereas in STW1.12 your guns were active until the very end of the battle and you never assumed otherwise...now you have to take into account tactical considerations when using your precious musket unit. We shall see when we play it.

[baz]

I look forward to playing this, let me know when people are playing .. times and dates etc .. if i am welcome of course ;)

One element that i feel has been lost from STW->MTW is the skirmising between cav and missiles. This was a massive part of the battle im STW/MI. When playing STW/MI you were willing to take loses to your cav in order to try and rout the enemy missiles. This was because once you had an advantage in the missile exchange over the enemy, you knew they were taking more loses than you and while this was happening the odds of you winning the final melee were increasing by each extra kill. Basically the cav loses were outweighed by the missile advantage.

However, in MTW/VI i felt that the loses were not worthwhile due to the smaller advantage that having superior ranged bought you. I believe that if missiles, guns in particular, are too weak then again we will loose this skirmising before melee which was present in first release. This is unless you used to find the bit in MTW interesting where we all line up and shoot for half an hour? Basically the loses are not outweighed by the missile advantage, hence the prolonged static stand offs which are extremely common in MTW/VI.

This is of course just my opinion i am not sure if others saw this change in tactic from STW-> MTW

Of course i understand that in MTW/VI the missiles were a lot less vulnerable to cav (agreed?) and that will not be the case here. I just wanted to point out that some players may find that stronger guns also bring a different tactical element to the game. It is a fine balance between making guns strong enough to make them worth sacrificing a little cav for, but not making them too strong, so that they alone decide the outcome of the battle. Good Luck!

Furthermore, poor archers also contributed to this situation found in MTW/VI, how do archers fair against guns in this mod compared to other releases?

In respect to Tera's comments about the ND ..
Tera and I tested the ND extensively in MI 1.02 and we both used it in our comp armies as a result, basically ND's were better value for koku than WM's. Just as WM were better value for koku, by a greater margin, than ND's in 1.12 ("monk rusher" comes to mind). This is a difficult job and perhaps the lower armour of the warrior monk may prove to be the balancing act between the two units. I am interested to know how this armour difference relates to kills per volley by missiles.

In summary this looks to be a great project and i really do look forward to playing it.

[Puzz3D]

Baz,

The effect of armor on archers is linear in the 1 to 8. I actually have some measurements for a1, a2 and a3. For 60 man archer volleys as the attacker, I got

3.3 kills per volley on armor 1 (WM)
1.8 kills per volley on armor 2 (ND)
1.3 kills per volley on armor 3 (YS)

that would extrapolate out to

0.9 kills per volley on armor 4
0.7 kills per volley on armor 5 (NI)

Kills on cav would be higher because they are a larger target.

In a shootout with the archer in double line vs the gun in 3 ranks, on flat ground, fine day, just inside max range and the gun going into loose after a few volleys, at the point the archer runs out of ammo,

SA gets about 30 kills and suffers 15 losses vs Portuguese teppo
SA gets about 20 kills and suffers 20 losses vs Japanese teppo

The archer uses all of it's ammo in 1 minute 24 seconds. The gun will still have 60% (12 rounds) of ammo left. Using an SA costing 500 in a shootout with teppos costing 200 and 300 is not really a cost effective way to use an archer, but you might do it to weaken guns a bit before a frontal assault. If you can get an archer shooting a monk or a cav unit, it can do some very cost effective damage. For instance, you can earn back the SA's cost of 500 with 10 volleys on a warrior monk leaving the SA with 16 arrows still to use, and that only takes 40 seconds of shooting.

CBR and I measured a 20% increase in effectiveness of archers if they are the defender in a battle. Krypta and I went back and measured them in STW v1.12, and measured the same difference. So, that difference has been there all along in the series. The guns show no difference between attacking and defending.

The cav skirmishing vs missles is back in the gameplay. Cav archers have less accuracy just as they did in STW v1.12 so frontal skirmishing with archers or guns is costly, but if you can get around on the side or get a height advantage they can be effective. CA is armor 3 and SA is armor 1, so there is a chance to do some damage there.

The 2v2 and 1v1 test battles have all lasted about 15 minutes. Gun ammo hasn't run out in these games.

[Cheetah]

Where can you download the latest version of this mod?

Just a side note, I love the balance of MI 1.02 imho muskets were not too powerful at all, it was perfect. Anyway, I have never played the original STW 1.12 stats so looking forward for some happy head hunting

[Dionysus9]

Dion,

I did make that change to cav archers. So it's now HC and NC at 20 run, CA at 22 and YC at 24. NC has the highest morale (8), HC is next(6), YC is next (4) and CA is lowest (2). The CA has 0.4 accuracy and the SA 0.6 just as they did in STW v1.12. There is a slight possibility that all the cav should be 2 points less in morale. I'm going to wait for feedback from players on that.

So, the YC can catch the CA, but it's not going to do so as quickly as it could in STW v1.12. CA will be an annoyance to NC since it's faster than NC. The cav prices are now HC (1200), NC (900), YC (900) and CA (800). We are trying to keep costs in multiples of 100 so that's why YC isn't 950 and CA 850. The monk is moved back to 1000 (2x the original 500).

That sounds like a nice, rich balance and I'm looking forward to doing some testing.

[IrishMike]

I would just like to say that if your looking for interest, you have mine. Sadly I missed out on shogun, so I can't ask any technical qestions and I can provide no help, but I am incridible interested in this mod, and I eagerly await your revisions to original mod to be released.

Cheers from me, and keep up the work!

[Puzz3D]

Thanks for the interest.

We now have a stat that plays well, but I have an idea that would bring army purchase closer to the way it worked in original STW v1.12. Right now in STWmod you purchase units in MP and custom at valor 0, and they are usable at valor 0. To effect that is was necessary to add +2 morale to the low and middle morale units. So, you are able to play without upgrades. There is no way to go lower in morale since you are already at valor 0.

In STW v1.12, units were purchased at honor 2 which is the equivalent of valor 1 in MTW/VI due to the hidden +2 morale of MTW/VI. The honor 2 gave units +4 morale, and the valor 1 gives +2 morale in addition to the hidden +2 morale for a total of +4 morale. The extra +1 att and +1 def that honor 2 was giving in STW over valor 1 in MTW/VI will cancel out since all units get it. Honor only cost 40% in STW while valor costs 70% in MTW. A single valor upgrade in STWmod will cost about the same as a double honor upgrade in STW, so the idea is to price the units in STWmod MP and custom battle at x/1.7, and take away the morale boost we gave to the low and middle morale units. In this way, units purchased at valor 1 in STWmod would be equivalent to units purchased at honor 2 in STW, and players would be able to sell off 1 valor point on some units to get money for upgrades on other units. You could also play low money games as was done in STW, but can only get -2 morale rather than the -4 you could get in STW.

Some testing is going to be required on this to make sure it doesn't break the game because you will be getting a lot of money selling off 1 valor on some units. For instance, using a WM at valor 0 will save 411, and a double valor upgrade on a YA will only cost 378. The v0 WM will still function well because it has morale 8, and will be 2 combat points (40%) less powerful than a v1 WM. The v3 YA will pick up 4 combat points, 100% more powerful, and 4 morale points over a v1 YA. The v3 YA is not a super unitwith 4 combat points and 2 morale, but you did gain more than you lost by making that trade off with the WM. It's probably ok because it's the about the same as you could do in original STW v1.12. I also want to be sure that a v0 HC at 705 doesn't obsolete a v1 NC at 900.

None of this will affect STWmod's SP campaign since that has it's own set of unit costs.

If anyone has an opinion on this idea, I'll be glad to listen to your comments.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Personally, i won't worry too much about trying to replicate STW MP too much - as long as the unit balance at equal valour is about right.

Span.

[Puzz3D]

The goal of this mod is to replicate STW v1.12 gameplay as closely as possible.

[ElmarkOFear]

Then you must include the lag that most games had to REALLY simulate the gameplay! hehe :) Sounds like you guys are doing a nice job. I will make it an option to play any of my STW MP CAMPAIGN battles using this mod. That way, if everyone is so inclined, and can schedule the match within a day or two, they can play it vs. each other, rather than have the AI vs AI battle on my PC. Good luck!

[Tomisama]

I have run into a small snag. The faction represented by the black dragon, is missing in the game. I imagine it was left off because we are not going to have Mongols, and that was the Mongol logo. But in order for the competition map I am working on “to work”, we need either 4, 8, or 16 playable clans.



I don’t know if we can interest 16 Clans in competing or not, but would like the option open if possible. We have had as many as 28 Clans in winter games before, so it’s not really that hard to imagine.

Any logo will do, just need to be able to have 16 playable game factions.

Thanks

[barocca]

Hi,

it takes about 2 days of work to make and add a clan,
(there are a lot of graphics to make and test, collating a list of leader, hero and heir names then adding them to the loc, name and prod files)

I dont have 2 spare days at the moment.
I have a new job, long days, plus moving house and an extra special event happening just before christmas (that is impossible to postpone)

I would suggest 12 clans.

sorry,
B.

[Tomisama]

No problem Barocca-san.

Understand completely, thanks

Be carefull (and congratulations?)

Will go with less for now, but has to be times two multiples in order to assure every team on the map has an opponent in every round.

Eight will work nicely for a first run anyway. Really there is no limit as to how many Clans can participate through the coarse of the contest. Will have to explain that later, has to do with mercenaries and alliances and stuff

Although not quite finished yet, thought I’d show the work at the end of the day today.

http://www.clanwarscomp.org/samurai/map.html

[Clips]

One question, are you making the mod so you can still play the orginal 4 era's in VI (Early, High, Late and Viking) so its more like an extension mod, or will it be liek nepolian where you add it play it, then take it off to be able to play the original 4 eras?

[L'Impresario]

You can still play the other eras, you just need to use a single program that will switch between the projectile stats of the mod and VI..that 'll take you about 3 secs each time:-)

BTW I 've come to hate the empire tourney .gif, it takes ages to load a page that contains it heh ;-)

[Clips]

Cheers alex, yeh thats easy so there is no way of getting both to work at same time, i mean so being able to play normal VI yet have the option of an extra era being Shoggy style, without conflictions between other players online who dont have this mod in the normal era's?
If you see what im saying, hope you do hehe. I would like not have to chnage anything if possible, is there no way or merging the Shoggy projectile stats with the normal VI ones to form 1?

[L'Impresario]

No there can't be two different projectile stat files at the same type, as far as I know (and it really makes sense heh). As I mentioned above, the mod isn't overwriting any files that allow you to play VI, it's just that you need to switch the files, and this is almost automatic, using a programme of 767 bytes ;)
Nothing to worry about, just after a normal game , before you relog, you have to run this thingie (it takes 3.46 secs to be precise).

[Puzz3D]

There wasn't any way to recreate the guns of STW without changing projectiles.txt, and you can't get the original gameplay without those guns. The cavalry archers are also adjusted to have the accuracy of original STW. The game supports multiple unit_prod files as separate eras, but it only supports a single projectiles file, so that one file has to be swapped in and out. It does requite a restart of the game each time you make the swap. Otherwise MTW/VI isn't affected by this STWmod, except that the missing corpses for some of the units in MTW/VI have been fixed. Right now the MTW/VI corpses do not graphically match the samurai units, and I'll see if I can fix that. At least you see corpses now, and you can tell which army they came from by the color. One other benefit to changing the projectiles.txt is that the discounts on upgrades for ranged units has been removed when playing STWmod.

The final testing of this Samurai Wars stat fell through this week except for a few 1v1 battles. I've done the best I can adjusting the kensai and ninja units. The stat can be played anywhere from 5k to 10k per player, but it's going to play most like STW at about 8500. In other words, playing STWmod at 8500 per player will be most like original STW at 5000 per player. A valor 1 unit in STWmod has the same morale as an honor 2 unit in STW, and you can outfit an army with all valor 1 units in STWmod with 8500 just as you could an honor 2 army in STW with 5000. At 8500, you can sell off this valor1 on some units by using them at valor 0 and use the money to upgrade other units just as was done in STW, but the flexibility here is not so great that units can be transformed into a different kind of unit. For instance, you won't be able to upgrade YS to the extent that it defeats WM thereby eliminating the need for swords.

I tested gun/melee combos to make sure they didn't defeat the counter unit. For instance, naginata cav (450) will defeat a gun/no-dachi combo (150 + 250 = 400). Another example, no-dachi with armor upgrade (250 + 87 = 337) will defeat gun/yari samurai combo (150 + 200 = 350). I haven't checked archer/melee combos, but a gun/melee combo may be the most effective counter.

I'll post Samurai Wars as a beta later tonight so people can try it and give some feedback.

[1dread1lahll]

fine fine. how about a link to the latest version plz

[barocca]

I am expecting some Converted maps later this week,
then i will have to test them to see if i can get them into the campaign and add them into the Shogun Mod,
(those maps willl be available for MP online regardless)

the Shogun Mod will then undergo a name change to Samurai and be uploaded as Samurai beta 7

Samurai beta 7 will include the Stats from Puzz and Kryst,
some front-end artwork from Tomi, a bunch of new character portraits from Eastside and over 90 models from me (including the Shogun Temples and Castles)



and i changed the skin on Medievals Bridge - the stone version did not fit with my idea of Shogun Era Japan.




beta 8 will be done as soon as i have some more time (currently moving house), beta 8 will see the leaders and heirs, heroes and generals sorted into a more logical order.

cheers,
B.

[Orda Khan]

But still no Mongols?

.....Orda

[Puzz3D]

Orda,

I don't think barocca has the graphics done for the Mongols. It's a lot of units to make. The cav archers in STW are quite good if that's the type of gameplay you are looking for.

I've posted the Samurai Wars_05b stat for STWmod, and there is a readme included.

[barocca]

The Mongols

i WANT to add the Mongols,
but i need a few things first,
For MP
i need to decide which medieval units can be used to represent the mongols

for those Mongol units which do not have a Medieval equivalent i need to decide which Medieval units can be killed off (as in use another medieval units graphics to represent them),
and then add the extra Mongols

i need to make all the "control" files for them. (actions, weapons etc)

i need to get Puzz and comapny to make/test the stats for them


For SP
I ALSO need

a tech tree - cannot set the game up to "give" reinforcement units.

to figure out how to make them invade (aka medieval golden horde)

make all the graphics for the tech tree buildings

make a build prod file.

make portraits for the Mongols

define leaders and heirs for them

define generals and heroes

um, am sure there are more, but it is bed time.
i WANT the mongol invasions in Samurai / Shoggy mod, i need time to make it happen

cheers,
B.

[Iguanus Commodus]

Small question: whatever happend to that hero thing? Is that implemented?

And what clans are available to use?

ShinIguana

[barocca]

i have not "fixed" or added in all the heroes yet,
they are planned for beta 8
B.