Possible Britain Map

[The_Emperor]

‘the fighting between the northern tribes was considered to be a lot fiercer, as they had fewer resources and raided each other a lot more’ interested to know what your evidence is?

I did find a site for this a while back that quoted a Roman source. I can't remember if it is Caesar or tacitus, but the Southern tribes of Britons were described as being more "like the Gauls" than their northern counterparts, who were always in a constant state of war with each other.

In addition Scotland is known for its unique Iron Age defences... Such as Brochs and Crannogs. (a Crannog being a settlement that was literally built in the middle of a Loch, a broch is a round almost tower-like structure made of stone suspected to be used as a store and defensive structure to prevent raids) Also some areas of Scotland had far less wood and Celtic hillforts were also made of Stone when that resource was nearby... But we do not have much information about the Northern Celtic tribes other than what Tacitus tells us about the Battle of Mons Graupius, and given he was related to Agricola the General who commanded the battle his account is bound to be exaggerated and flawed.

At any rate the Romans declared that all of Britannia was subdued after victory at Mons Graupius, in reality the surviving Caledonni and the Picts melted away into the countryside after their defeat while the Romans chose to pull back south rather than hold on to the North... Presumably there was no resource of value to keep them interested in maintaing a garisson that far North.

When Hadrian's wall was built later, Pictish raids on the wall were commonplace, and the Romans often engaged in strikes north of the wall and has some success in limiting the raids. But the Pictish problem remained a constant threat until the year the Romans left.

[Ranika]

I say the Picts are not like their Celtic neighbors, as, physically, they are described as quite different. They were shorter, with black hair.

I'm aware of the anachronism of using the later capitols of the Pict areas (and it's Cat, not Cait, Cait is a later spelling and has a different pronunciation). However, they are minor anachronisms, as the later Picts in Athfotla, Cat, and Fibb, all claimed their kingdoms to be at least a thousand years old, and based on old tribal regions.

As for Hibernia, it IS important to the Gauls, Iberian Celts, and the Britons, enough to be split in half, if you're not going to do anything to Scotland, as all of them had some legend about it being some kind of promised land (it's why they were so adamant about killing, not conquering, all of the natives). Hibernia itself was rich in silver and iron in the north, and cattle and farming in the south, as well as the mytho-religiosity intents of the Celtic invaders make Hibernia, at least Hibernia, very important.

And if you're going to not divide up Scotland a lot, at least divide it in half. The Caledonii were of Celtic extraction, but the Picts were simply not. They were a completely different race of people, and lumping them all together is a bad inaccuracy. While the Romans would sometime say they were the same people, every description of the Picts, including the Roman ones, is that they were a short, black haired people, while the Britons were tall and fair-headed.

[eadingas]

What exactly is known about Picts at the time of the game? Shouldn't they just be included as 'rebels', instead of having a province all of their own? They may claim to be there for centuries, but frankly, so do all invaders after a couple generations...
Okay, I'm almost convinced about splitting Hibernia in two by now, it's big enough, but I'm still against splitting Scotland.

[Ranika]

Alright, I'll concede splitting Scotland, if Hibernia is split. And yes, they should be rebels, at the time, as they didn't really form into anything remotely akin to a kingdom until the middle of the Dark Ages (the Dal Riatans reported that they were still almost totally nomadic for nearly 200 years after invading Caledonia, with only a few established cities, which were more like weigh stations for the nomadic tribes, who'd come in, rest and barter for what they might need, then left). Only when they percieved a real heavy threat from the Dal Riatans did they coalesce heavily into effective kingdoms, but they were, even before that, divided in north and south tribes, that fought one another.

My main wish to at least divide Scotland in half is so there can be a Pict rebel province (using a Pict mercenary unit, possibly, or a unique Pict rebel unit) in it, with a British Caledonian province.

But, then again, the main wish to divide up Britain is so the British can be confined to it, and have to fight to control ALL of Britain, so I'd like 6-7 or so divisions in Britain.

As for Hibernia, I reiterate, then, that it WAS very important to Gauls, Britons AND Iberians. The north of Britain I'll concede, as, I admit it was not that important to any of the main factions, I only wish the Picts to be present in some respect, and, if not divided, I would content myself to a Pict mercenary or rebel unit. Hibernia, however, was a focal point of Celtic religious and myth culture, especially for the Gauls. While little can be confirmed about the earliest divisions, it is accepted as history due to numerous confirmable sources, like what the Britons had to say about the Gaels, and what is taught as history in modern day Ireland (it's what I was taught, in and out of school). In any event, it is known to have been split, originally, into a northern and southern half, then in three parts, then four. However, by 270 BC, it'd only be the two halves, with sub-states in the northeast and southwest, so just splitting it along the middle horizontally would accomplish a proper divide fine.

[eadingas]

We can, IIRC, quite easily manipulate how often and how strong the rebel forces appear in the province. So we could simply make the Picts appear in Caledonia very often and very strong. This would give them a strong, constant presence on the map, and make them a constant threat to anyone who controls Caledonia (they could even succeed in sacking its capital, if we make them strong enough), but not having permanent province. How's that?

(BTW, I'm planning to check out the 'founded in:' in descr_strat later today, - or has anyone checked if it's worth the bother? It would be fun to make Caledonia unconquerable for a while because of no cities to conquer...)

[Ranika]

I like that idea, it'd give the Picts a presence, but not take up a province. That sounds very good. I think, however, then, Caledonia should start rebel, and the Briton provinces should be around Wales/Cornwall. Anyone want to take a stab at dividing up Britain into some logical regions? I know I asked for an Iceni province, and know it's not correct to the period, just saying it should be one due to the importance to the Romans, but I'm not adverse to more proper divisions either. However, Tribus Siluri should definitely be divided between the Dumnonii and Ordovicii, possibly the Silurii in the very south of Wales, but they took up a TINY area, it'd have to be a bit of an exaggerated area of control (but then, all of the British provinces will be)

[eadingas]

Oh, Caledonia definitely Rebel, no doubt about it... As you can see several posts above, I did pretty much what you ask for: Dumnonum and Ordovicii instead of Silurii. Now it's only a matter of cleaning up the details. Do you agree that the capital of Ordovicii should be in Mona? And what about the capital of the Dumnons: according to his: http://www.roman-britain.org/tribes/dumnonii.htm , we have at least two possible places, either Isca Dumnonum (Colchester, but it's later period) or Ictis...
The northern province of England in my map is Brigantes... is this ok? Or should it be Coritani with Brigantes as rebels?

BTW, if we consider the Iceni (although I think Trinovantes are enough for the period, they were more important in the earlier years and had similarly significant role in Boadica's uprising) what about Catuvellauni, in their original settlement north of Thames?

Oh, and another thing. There is simple possibility to mark the presence of Belgae on southern shores of Britain (as reported by Caesar). Just use the same RGB color as Belgian province to mark some area on the island. This has no significant effect on gameplay, I think, but would be a nice historical touch...