Possible Britain Map

[Tazmanius]

with regard to Britain....or Wales to be more specific...

I,personally ,think there should be a North/South divide(Some things never change!)...Ordovices in the North and Silures in the South...

Caratacus was a leader of the Silures who fled to the Ordovices during his war against Rome.Both tribes actively pursued an anti-Roman policy...To say one is more relevant in history or power would be wrong!
They were equally pre-eminent in Wales and both resisted Rome into the 70s AD...hence the need for Legionnary Fortresses at Chester and Caerleon.....
Surely a testimony to the trouble they both caused Rome?

[Ranika]

I believe during 270 BC though, the Siluri were a fairly small tribe, that only control a tiny portion of Wales, around what would later be the kingdom of Gwent. Anyone know just how much land the Siluri occupied during this period?

If they are relatively small and ineffectual during the period of Rome: Total War (270 BC-14 AD), it'd be almost like the addition of the Iceni province, but that was agreed against.

[eadingas]

I was thinking of putting Siluri, Iceni and Catuvellauni as rebels in respective provinces of Ordovices, Trinovantes and Coritani. This should be fair for the period, I think

[Ranika]

I could the Siluri as rebels more easily than as a seperate province, as if they were, they'd be tiny. The Catuvellauni should be included in some respect, and I think that works. Would opt for them to have a province instead of the Coritani, but can't see the Catuvellauni being 'allied' in the manner that the Briton faction would represent, in its earliest stages.

[Tazmanius]

Actually...In history...The Siluri were considered to be more powerful than the Ordovices.....and controlled most of South Wales,not just Gwent!

By the way...got a map of Ancient Britain(You've probably sourced it already?But not sure how I attach it to my post?

[eadingas]

We can't divide Wales, it's too much. Ordovices controlled much more of Wales than Silures, and they owned Mona, which is too important to miss on the map.
"The Siluri were considered to be more powerful than the Ordovices" - by whom, and in what context? They have resisted Romans a bit longer, but that's all I could find...
Perhaps this province should simply have the name of 'Wales' in some ancient tongue, if we can find source that there was a common name for the area used in 200-300 BC.

BTW, does anybody have more on Pytheas travels than what can be found on the web?

[Ranika]

The Silures, on the only maps I can find, controlled the area of Gwent, and a small portion east of it, and spread into the west. By the Roman era in Britain, they controlled a reasonable area of land, but if we're trying to go off of the sizes of the tribes at the time of 270 BC, the Silures only controlled the area of Gwent, and a little to the east. If we did include a Silure province, it'd have to have the size anachronized to include the later western expansion, which absorbed lands from the Demetae, who were probably larger than the Silures around 270 BC (as, by the period of Roman British conquest, they still controlled all of Dyfydd and parts of Gwynydd).

Do you have a map outlining an area that you would wish to be Silure during the opening period? Perhaps the full area after their westward expansion, but that would be akin to including Iceni again, though, that area would be present before the end of the game, so more valid.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the reply to that. And for a provincial name, Wales is actually a bastardization of the Saxon word 'Wealas', meaning foreigner. The Welsh call Wales "Cymru", but also gwrymiau and ngwrymiau.

[Tazmanius]

Most references to Wales come to us from Tacitus....outside our timeline but the major source on this subject...as there is little or no historical record re:Wales(Cambria/Cambrensis/Cymru)prior to him.....

Silures lands extended from Wye to South-Western peninsula...which the Demetae occupied(other group Octapitae is also from this area...St.David's head named after them...apparently).
Ordovices controlled most opf Mid-Wales...and may have had land in Snowdonia/North-West.
Other Northern tribes were...Gangani,Decanti and Deceangli!

Demetae...do not appear in Tacitus record...and there are no certain forts in their territory...possibly they co-operated with the Romans.
Silures and Ordovices were opposed to Rome and not subjugated until the campaigns of 74-78 AD.Deceangli fought against Rome in 48...but had probably been brought to heel by Anglesey campaign of 60AD.
Silures were a major thorn in Romans side...as Tacitus relates the wars with Caratacus....easily as important in British History/Folklore as Boudicca!

Above referenced from The Roman frontier in Wales...V.E.Nash-Williams.

A quote from...Britannia by Sheppard Frere..

"The Silures in South-East Wales,guided at first by Caratacus' brilliant leadership,were to prove themselves the toughest and most successful opponents which the Roman army was to encounter in these islands,and herein they were assisted by the character of the terrain."

When implementing Anglesey(Mon,Ynys Mon,Mona)please make sure to have a good grain and copper resource....also copper at Gt.Ormes head,mid coast....and lead mines in NE wales.
Maybe Mon should have a druid unit?even if like TR you have them as not buildable.

from Britannia again...."They were by far the most famous people in Wales" referencing the Silures and Frontinus campaign against them.

Also a suggestion that the Silures were more hispanic in nature than their neighbours....as they were darker skinned and had probably been Celticized fairly late...referenced Culture and Enviroment in Prehistoric Wales...ed.J.A.Taylor

As a footnote...worked as a guide/Archaeologist asst. at Gt.Orme Copper Mine...while at Bangor University(History,Welsh History,Archaeology....in first year....dropped out 2nd year due to family problems.