Possible Britain Map

[Tazmanius]

with regard to Britain....or Wales to be more specific...

I,personally ,think there should be a North/South divide(Some things never change!)...Ordovices in the North and Silures in the South...

Caratacus was a leader of the Silures who fled to the Ordovices during his war against Rome.Both tribes actively pursued an anti-Roman policy...To say one is more relevant in history or power would be wrong!
They were equally pre-eminent in Wales and both resisted Rome into the 70s AD...hence the need for Legionnary Fortresses at Chester and Caerleon.....
Surely a testimony to the trouble they both caused Rome?

[Ranika]

I believe during 270 BC though, the Siluri were a fairly small tribe, that only control a tiny portion of Wales, around what would later be the kingdom of Gwent. Anyone know just how much land the Siluri occupied during this period?

If they are relatively small and ineffectual during the period of Rome: Total War (270 BC-14 AD), it'd be almost like the addition of the Iceni province, but that was agreed against.

[eadingas]

I was thinking of putting Siluri, Iceni and Catuvellauni as rebels in respective provinces of Ordovices, Trinovantes and Coritani. This should be fair for the period, I think

[Ranika]

I could the Siluri as rebels more easily than as a seperate province, as if they were, they'd be tiny. The Catuvellauni should be included in some respect, and I think that works. Would opt for them to have a province instead of the Coritani, but can't see the Catuvellauni being 'allied' in the manner that the Briton faction would represent, in its earliest stages.

[Tazmanius]

Actually...In history...The Siluri were considered to be more powerful than the Ordovices.....and controlled most of South Wales,not just Gwent!

By the way...got a map of Ancient Britain(You've probably sourced it already?But not sure how I attach it to my post?

[eadingas]

We can't divide Wales, it's too much. Ordovices controlled much more of Wales than Silures, and they owned Mona, which is too important to miss on the map.
"The Siluri were considered to be more powerful than the Ordovices" - by whom, and in what context? They have resisted Romans a bit longer, but that's all I could find...
Perhaps this province should simply have the name of 'Wales' in some ancient tongue, if we can find source that there was a common name for the area used in 200-300 BC.

BTW, does anybody have more on Pytheas travels than what can be found on the web?

[Ranika]

The Silures, on the only maps I can find, controlled the area of Gwent, and a small portion east of it, and spread into the west. By the Roman era in Britain, they controlled a reasonable area of land, but if we're trying to go off of the sizes of the tribes at the time of 270 BC, the Silures only controlled the area of Gwent, and a little to the east. If we did include a Silure province, it'd have to have the size anachronized to include the later western expansion, which absorbed lands from the Demetae, who were probably larger than the Silures around 270 BC (as, by the period of Roman British conquest, they still controlled all of Dyfydd and parts of Gwynydd).

Do you have a map outlining an area that you would wish to be Silure during the opening period? Perhaps the full area after their westward expansion, but that would be akin to including Iceni again, though, that area would be present before the end of the game, so more valid.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the reply to that. And for a provincial name, Wales is actually a bastardization of the Saxon word 'Wealas', meaning foreigner. The Welsh call Wales "Cymru", but also gwrymiau and ngwrymiau.

[Tazmanius]

Most references to Wales come to us from Tacitus....outside our timeline but the major source on this subject...as there is little or no historical record re:Wales(Cambria/Cambrensis/Cymru)prior to him.....

Silures lands extended from Wye to South-Western peninsula...which the Demetae occupied(other group Octapitae is also from this area...St.David's head named after them...apparently).
Ordovices controlled most opf Mid-Wales...and may have had land in Snowdonia/North-West.
Other Northern tribes were...Gangani,Decanti and Deceangli!

Demetae...do not appear in Tacitus record...and there are no certain forts in their territory...possibly they co-operated with the Romans.
Silures and Ordovices were opposed to Rome and not subjugated until the campaigns of 74-78 AD.Deceangli fought against Rome in 48...but had probably been brought to heel by Anglesey campaign of 60AD.
Silures were a major thorn in Romans side...as Tacitus relates the wars with Caratacus....easily as important in British History/Folklore as Boudicca!

Above referenced from The Roman frontier in Wales...V.E.Nash-Williams.

A quote from...Britannia by Sheppard Frere..

"The Silures in South-East Wales,guided at first by Caratacus' brilliant leadership,were to prove themselves the toughest and most successful opponents which the Roman army was to encounter in these islands,and herein they were assisted by the character of the terrain."

When implementing Anglesey(Mon,Ynys Mon,Mona)please make sure to have a good grain and copper resource....also copper at Gt.Ormes head,mid coast....and lead mines in NE wales.
Maybe Mon should have a druid unit?even if like TR you have them as not buildable.

from Britannia again...."They were by far the most famous people in Wales" referencing the Silures and Frontinus campaign against them.

Also a suggestion that the Silures were more hispanic in nature than their neighbours....as they were darker skinned and had probably been Celticized fairly late...referenced Culture and Enviroment in Prehistoric Wales...ed.J.A.Taylor

As a footnote...worked as a guide/Archaeologist asst. at Gt.Orme Copper Mine...while at Bangor University(History,Welsh History,Archaeology....in first year....dropped out 2nd year due to family problems.

[eadingas]

I have druids as unique unit buildable in Mona in my own version of the game, but I'm afraid it would be frowned upon around here as 'fantasy'...

[Ranika]

Well, the druids, inasmuch as what is currently in R:TW aren't...realistic. Like, in Gaul, the most realistic thing would be the Carnute Cingetos, and the current druids aren't REMOTELY similar. Likewise, while I don't see it unlikely that druids would've fought in Britain (though I'd imagine it'd be more pressed to fight, rather than seeking a fight, as British druids were more used in a command and advice position than warriors), the CA depiction is still highly fantastic, I'm sure. I mean, given their position, and the general unlikelyhood of them engaging in combat, who in noin ifrion is going to go through the trouble of making their 'special' shields and weapons, rather than giving them more practical shields, and more readily available weapons, like swords or spears? I would like to see a druidic combat unit of some type, maybe, if enough of a historical source can be found for them, but they'd need redesigned from the floor up.

[The_Emperor]

I have druids as unique unit buildable in Mona in my own version of the game, but I'm afraid it would be frowned upon around here as 'fantasy'...

I found a reference to Caesar's accounts of the Gallic Wars where he describes the Druids as being "above military service". So their portrayal as warriors is not really right for this mod. They were the Judges, Scholars, Historians and Priests of Celtic society and tribal leaders themselves had to respect their counsel and judgement.

By all means keep them in as retinue members though.

[zakalwe]

It would be nice to have something that reflects the importance of Ynys Mon. Perhaps it could simply be a unique structure that gives a happiness or law/order bonus or something along those lines? Sort of like an awesome temple? Or a +1 morale bonus to all units trained there?

I'm a bit ambivalent either way about druids. As they portrayed in the game, they're pretty dodgy , although i can understand why ca put them in. Perhaps it would be nice to have a unit which had a druid with them rather like the standard-bearer Roman dudes (forgotten their name?) ?

I suppose these come under a different thread from this map one though?

Personally, not really knowing much about IA wales, i'm happy either way for the tribe names. We dont know how many tribes lived in the area in 270Bc or what their names were, although they were probably smaller in size than there 1stCAd equivalents. We could just call the area by another name, but that sort of takes away the personality a bit.

For dividing the area, archaeologically the south coast had more in common with Cornwall, north Devon and Somerset than the north of wales. but in many ways since we have to divide the island into only a couple of provinces, this really can't be helped.

Always wanted to go Great Orme. It looks great.

[eadingas]

This is, I think, the source of CA's rendition of Druids:

"[The Druids at Mona Island]

On the opposite shore stood the Britons, close embodied, and prepared for action. Women were seen running through the ranks in wild disorder; their apparel funeral; their hair loose to the wind, in their hands flaming torches, and their whole appearance resembling the frantic rage of the Furies. The Druids were ranged in order, with hands uplifted, invoking the gods, and pouring forth horrible imprecations. The novelty of the fight struck the Romans with awe and terror. They stood in stupid amazement, as if their limbs were benumbed, riveted to one spot, a mark for the enemy. The exhortations of the general diffused new vigour through the ranks, and the men, by mutual reproaches, inflamed each other to deeds of valour. They felt the disgrace of yielding to a troop of women, and a band of fanatic priests; they advanced their standards, and rushed on to the attack with impetuous fury."

Tacitus, Annals, Book XIV, Chapter 30

The druid model is used as second officer for briton units in RTR. We can have up to 3 officers per unit, so we can add some more colour to the units this way. I have tried to add a dog as one of the officers, but it crashes the game :)
And I'm all for giving something special to Mona.

[Tazmanius]

Just a thought....Why are we just going for Coritanii in midlands?Weren't Cornovii quite strong....held much of west/NW midlands and some of mid/NE wales!
Wasn't it down to them that Viriconium was established?

[eadingas]

I get the impression Coritani had more land, and they had Lindum and Ratae... They were more developed, had their own coins, chronicled rulers names... Cornovii look to me like a buffer frontier between Wales, Brigantes and cental England...they could be rebels in Coritani province...
Of course, I'm saying all this sitting at the computer thousand miles from England, not as someone who's actually been digging up stuff, so I may be wrong :)

[zakalwe]

Of course, I'm saying all this sitting at the computer thousand miles from England

Well we're all sitting at our computers 2000 years in the future

The druid model is used as second officer for briton units in RTR

Hey that's pretty cool

Women were seen running through the ranks in wild disorder; their apparel funeral; their hair loose to the wind, in their hands flaming torches, and their whole appearance resembling the frantic rage of the Furies

Perhaps we need a 'Frantic women' unit for the Britons

[Ranika]

The Cornovii could be a good inclusion, but how much land would they have to take up? While your Britain map may not be cramped now, they would be in an area already thick with provinces, and it may very quickly become cramped.

[eadingas]

We can't really add any more provinces. It's already quite crowded with the 8-9 for both islands we agreed upon. We can only decide if it's better to change their names/borders from one to another.
All this info will be more useful once we decide to do Britain: TW mod :)

[Ranika]

Do you have a picture of the current set up then? With cities where possible?

[eadingas]

Here's what I sent to Dead Moroz for consideration (colors messed up by conversion):



The provinces, from north to south:

Caledonia:
Traprain Law
britons
Pretani

Brigantes:
Isurium
britons
Carvetii or Cornovii

Coritani:
Ratae
britons
Catavellauni

Trinovantes:
Camulodunum
britons
Iceni

Dumnones:
Ictis
britons
Belgae

Ordovices:
Mona
britons
Silurii

And for Hibernia:

Cunnacht:
Tara
britons
Hibernians

Erain:
Menapia
britons
Hibernians

BTW, we'll have to start thinking of resources for each province, too.

[Ranika]

Could the base culture of Erain be changed to Gaul? The south was generally more heavily affected by the Gauls, while the Briton tribes generally settled the north more heavily (though both had tribes in both places, such as Brigantes in the south, and Uillii in the north). It's not important, too much really, but it would affect, I think, the temples that would possibly be built there, and it just seems more likely to me, in the south, a temple at Menapia (the Menapii were mainly Gallic) would be to a Gallic god, not a British one.

Resources, perhaps silver in Cunnacht, as there were silver mines there, Patrick notes them. While this would be hundreds of years after the setting, it's still notable that silver deposits were present, and they should have the chance to mine them. Also, there is green marble in the west (the hills of Connemara), but don't know if any resource would represent that.

In Erain, the most notable feature was really the abundant farmlands, as Erain controlled more of the fertile center of the island, but also had the larger iron reserves, and had more available hunting lands, so perhaps furs or something similar? Or maybe linens, though the south grew famous for linens a bit later, I believe.

In Caledonia, is wool a resource? If so, I'd have that in Caledonia, and with the Dumnones and Ordovices. I'm not sure about the rest, to be honest. I'm not really sure about the wool 100% either, and Erain's up in the air for me too. Cunnacht though, I'd give silver, and marble if there is a resource for it.

[PSYCHO V]

First time I've read through this thread. I like!!

You guys have done some great work here! Well done fellas! Can't wait to see this in game.

[Ranika]

For dividing the area, archaeologically the south coast had more in common with Cornwall, north Devon and Somerset than the north of wales. but in many ways since we have to divide the island into only a couple of provinces, this really can't be helped.

Perhaps just do a little something like give the Dumnones some area in south Wales, like how the Belgians have some land in Kent and such? While not perfect in conveying the tribal presences, it'd at least be a hat tip to the difference of the tribes present in the south, without having to cram another province on the island.

[PSYCHO V]

If I can add a bit

Well, the druids, inasmuch as what is currently in R:TW aren't...realistic. Like, in Gaul, the most realistic thing would be the Carnute Cingetos, and the current druids aren't REMOTELY similar. ..I mean, given their position,…who in noin ifrion is going to go through the trouble of making their 'special' shields and weapons, rather than giving them more practical shields, and more readily available weapons, like swords or spears? I would like to see a druidic combat unit of some type, maybe, if enough of a historical source can be found for them, but they'd need redesigned from the floor up.

Yup, the current guys suck big time. Both Druid units need a total rework imho. We especially need to get rid of the SICKLE and THRACIAN SHIELD.

Yes, I believe the Gallic Druids should be the 'Carnute Cingetos' and called such..as mentioned / described previously. And they should be only buildable in Carnute lands.

The Briton Druids should be much less warlike, called Druidae or some such and only buildable on Mona. They should wear white and wield either a war hammer (as in Ordovice folk law) or double-handed sword (as in Irish folk law). You could make the Briton Druids an officer unit but I think you’ll loose some of that great chanting effect, which incidentally, is historical

I found a reference to Caesar's accounts of the Gallic Wars where he describes the Druids as being "above military service". So their portrayal as warriors is not really right for this mod. They were the Judges, Scholars, Historians and Priests of Celtic society and tribal leaders themselves had to respect their counsel and judgement.

The reference referred to states that they were “exempt” from military service. The exemption was from what amounted to conscripted military service that all Celts of fighting age were forced to undertake at the behest of their overlord. It doesn’t mean they didn’t fight, rather they only fought as volunteers.

I've posted many a thread over the past few years on the evidence that Druids fought in battle. I even found cases where they were referred to as an elite type of 'unit' (eg. Brittany / Ireland).

My2bob

(P.S Tried to do a search to find those posts but seems they may have been deleted)

[Ranika]

The Irish 'druids' were more warlike than the British ones, as they trained specifically for war, but not near as much as the Carnutes. The Irish druids were Brehain (the preceding word of Brehon, the judges in Féineachas). I'd base the British druids upon the Ordovice legends, as the Irish druids, while related in tradition, were also related to the Carnutes, as they largely adopted their training techniques according to Irish tradition. The Irish Brehain used large two-handed swords that were the precept to the dark age Lewing Sword. When talking about British druids, we, at the time, probably would've tried to relate them to Brehain, as they were of similar origin, and served the same purpose in many ways, as religious leaders and judges, but Brehains also organized as a fighting force in the event of an invasion, and were 'officers' to the Fianna, the legendary protectors of Iron Age Gaelic Ireland.

Anyway, ranting about Irish things there, anyway, yes, the Ordovicii legends would be more accurate, I'd imagine, so giving them hammers would be more proper, as the Gaelic legends of British druids are more than likely attempts to make the British ones seem more familiar.

In the war between Mogha and Cuinn, supposedly, the reason Cuinn agreed to split the island in half with Mogha so quickly was because Mogha had one hundred Brehains present at Firbos (the field of the Firbolg, in reality probably a British tribe that was slaughtered en masse, with the remnants fleeing north to the more British related tribes, and integrating there). The presence of so many of them terrified Cuinn, and he very hastily agreed to split the island. Notable about the earliest writing about this (though happening near 450 years after the incident would've occured, but is supposed to be a very good account of the oral tradition's story), is the word 'milidh' being used to describe their status. Milidh, from the name of the supposed father of the Gaels, came to mean a champion or great warrior.

[Tazmanius]

In reply to queries about resources....Have a few books about pre-historic Britain....Including one specifically referring to Wales, culture and enviroment...
In these there are details,and in some cases...a lot of detail...on local resources,fortifications,size of settlements etc.
I'll try and put together a few notes,based on the regional info supplied...Provinces etc. and post over weekend!

If you have any specific areas of research then let me know or post here and I'll try to pore through my books!

[PSYCHO V]

The Irish 'druids' ...

Another Celtofile amongst us I see. Been reading all the same text, books etc it seems.

Great to have you around Ranika

[Ranika]

If there were space left for them, the Brehain may be an interesting unit in Hibernia, but, they would've been a later development (in the later BCs, probably not present during the early colonization of Hibernia, but they would be present before 14 AD). However, Fianna likely preceded them, as the need for a unified protectorate force was necessary to keeping the Gaelic parts Gaelic, and could be like Celtic Spartans, but also an afterthought. The Fianna didn't fight against Gaels under any circumstance (unless the Gaels joined with an invader, but in that case, they were probably no longer considered Gaels, and outcast). The Fianna could be a unit available to any Celtic faction in Hibernia. But that isn't really on the subject of the map.

However, if Brehains were used, there'd be another two-handed weapon unit, and could use the groovy looking falx animations (though the actual Irish two-handed sword martial arts, specifically anabh, literally 'two hand', would look TOTALLY different).

As far as the map is concerned, I really like how the British map has developed recently, I think we've accomplished a lot with it. However, there was some talk of dividing Caledonia again, but in any event, southern Britain and Hibernia are about finished, in as much as territory divisions, and I think Caledonia too, maybe.

Oh, and good point about 'exemption'. The druid class was valued for their knowledge, but with Celtic custom and religion, being largely based around warfare and the glory earned from it, such an esteemed individual wouldn't be disallowed from engaging in such a practice, as it was the main way to earn prestige. While many druids (used as a catchall here for Carnute Cingetos, Druidae, and Brehain) did operate in warfare from a command position, there were those who did seek glory from a more direct interaction with fighting, especially in Gaul and iron age Ireland, but they did so voluntarily, and it'd not be held against them if they didn't wish to fight, as they had numerous other high value skills.

[Ranika]

It would be nice to have something that reflects the importance of Ynys Mon. Perhaps it could simply be a unique structure that gives a happiness or law/order bonus or something along those lines? Sort of like an awesome temple? Or a +1 morale bonus to all units trained there?

This has been talked about in a few places (not specifically for Mona, but, indestructible unique 'structures' for some settlements to offer some bonuses to them). I'd really like to see something like this added to some of the key or capitol settlements. Some that I'd like to see:
One at Mona, like mentioned here by zakalwe, representing the center of the Druidae.
One in Egypt, as described in the private forum, some type of large river irrigation structure, representing the Nile irrigation
One at Tara, the large domed structure found in northern Ireland, composed of large wood pylons, with a completely thatched roof. The structure was MASSIVE, considering what it was made from. It was partly burned, shortly post construction, possibly in some ritual manner, and was likely the earliest seat of an actual Gaelic 'high king' of Ireland. Perhaps could convey an economic bonus or experience bonus to soldiers of some kind (or, alternatively, could be the basis for a new structure allowing for 'large' barbarian cities).

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Of course, I'm saying all this sitting at the computer thousand miles from England

Well we're all sitting at our computers 2000 years in the future

The druid model is used as second officer for briton units in RTR

Hey that's pretty cool

Women were seen running through the ranks in wild disorder; their apparel funeral; their hair loose to the wind, in their hands flaming torches, and their whole appearance resembling the frantic rage of the Furies

Perhaps we need a 'Frantic women' unit for the Britons

Do i need to someone?

This is an HISTORICAL REALISM MOD!!!

NO FANTASY IS ALLOWED!!!