Possible Britain Map

[PSYCHO V]

First time I've read through this thread. I like!!

You guys have done some great work here! Well done fellas! Can't wait to see this in game.

[PSYCHO V]

If I can add a bit

Well, the druids, inasmuch as what is currently in R:TW aren't...realistic. Like, in Gaul, the most realistic thing would be the Carnute Cingetos, and the current druids aren't REMOTELY similar. ..I mean, given their position,…who in noin ifrion is going to go through the trouble of making their 'special' shields and weapons, rather than giving them more practical shields, and more readily available weapons, like swords or spears? I would like to see a druidic combat unit of some type, maybe, if enough of a historical source can be found for them, but they'd need redesigned from the floor up.

Yup, the current guys suck big time. Both Druid units need a total rework imho. We especially need to get rid of the SICKLE and THRACIAN SHIELD.

Yes, I believe the Gallic Druids should be the 'Carnute Cingetos' and called such..as mentioned / described previously. And they should be only buildable in Carnute lands.

The Briton Druids should be much less warlike, called Druidae or some such and only buildable on Mona. They should wear white and wield either a war hammer (as in Ordovice folk law) or double-handed sword (as in Irish folk law). You could make the Briton Druids an officer unit but I think you’ll loose some of that great chanting effect, which incidentally, is historical

I found a reference to Caesar's accounts of the Gallic Wars where he describes the Druids as being "above military service". So their portrayal as warriors is not really right for this mod. They were the Judges, Scholars, Historians and Priests of Celtic society and tribal leaders themselves had to respect their counsel and judgement.

The reference referred to states that they were “exempt” from military service. The exemption was from what amounted to conscripted military service that all Celts of fighting age were forced to undertake at the behest of their overlord. It doesn’t mean they didn’t fight, rather they only fought as volunteers.

I've posted many a thread over the past few years on the evidence that Druids fought in battle. I even found cases where they were referred to as an elite type of 'unit' (eg. Brittany / Ireland).

My2bob

(P.S Tried to do a search to find those posts but seems they may have been deleted)

[Ranika]

The Irish 'druids' were more warlike than the British ones, as they trained specifically for war, but not near as much as the Carnutes. The Irish druids were Brehain (the preceding word of Brehon, the judges in Féineachas). I'd base the British druids upon the Ordovice legends, as the Irish druids, while related in tradition, were also related to the Carnutes, as they largely adopted their training techniques according to Irish tradition. The Irish Brehain used large two-handed swords that were the precept to the dark age Lewing Sword. When talking about British druids, we, at the time, probably would've tried to relate them to Brehain, as they were of similar origin, and served the same purpose in many ways, as religious leaders and judges, but Brehains also organized as a fighting force in the event of an invasion, and were 'officers' to the Fianna, the legendary protectors of Iron Age Gaelic Ireland.

Anyway, ranting about Irish things there, anyway, yes, the Ordovicii legends would be more accurate, I'd imagine, so giving them hammers would be more proper, as the Gaelic legends of British druids are more than likely attempts to make the British ones seem more familiar.

In the war between Mogha and Cuinn, supposedly, the reason Cuinn agreed to split the island in half with Mogha so quickly was because Mogha had one hundred Brehains present at Firbos (the field of the Firbolg, in reality probably a British tribe that was slaughtered en masse, with the remnants fleeing north to the more British related tribes, and integrating there). The presence of so many of them terrified Cuinn, and he very hastily agreed to split the island. Notable about the earliest writing about this (though happening near 450 years after the incident would've occured, but is supposed to be a very good account of the oral tradition's story), is the word 'milidh' being used to describe their status. Milidh, from the name of the supposed father of the Gaels, came to mean a champion or great warrior.

[PSYCHO V]

The Irish 'druids' ...

Another Celtofile amongst us I see. Been reading all the same text, books etc it seems.

Great to have you around Ranika

[Ranika]

If there were space left for them, the Brehain may be an interesting unit in Hibernia, but, they would've been a later development (in the later BCs, probably not present during the early colonization of Hibernia, but they would be present before 14 AD). However, Fianna likely preceded them, as the need for a unified protectorate force was necessary to keeping the Gaelic parts Gaelic, and could be like Celtic Spartans, but also an afterthought. The Fianna didn't fight against Gaels under any circumstance (unless the Gaels joined with an invader, but in that case, they were probably no longer considered Gaels, and outcast). The Fianna could be a unit available to any Celtic faction in Hibernia. But that isn't really on the subject of the map.

However, if Brehains were used, there'd be another two-handed weapon unit, and could use the groovy looking falx animations (though the actual Irish two-handed sword martial arts, specifically anabh, literally 'two hand', would look TOTALLY different).

As far as the map is concerned, I really like how the British map has developed recently, I think we've accomplished a lot with it. However, there was some talk of dividing Caledonia again, but in any event, southern Britain and Hibernia are about finished, in as much as territory divisions, and I think Caledonia too, maybe.

Oh, and good point about 'exemption'. The druid class was valued for their knowledge, but with Celtic custom and religion, being largely based around warfare and the glory earned from it, such an esteemed individual wouldn't be disallowed from engaging in such a practice, as it was the main way to earn prestige. While many druids (used as a catchall here for Carnute Cingetos, Druidae, and Brehain) did operate in warfare from a command position, there were those who did seek glory from a more direct interaction with fighting, especially in Gaul and iron age Ireland, but they did so voluntarily, and it'd not be held against them if they didn't wish to fight, as they had numerous other high value skills.

[Tazmanius]

In reply to queries about resources....Have a few books about pre-historic Britain....Including one specifically referring to Wales, culture and enviroment...
In these there are details,and in some cases...a lot of detail...on local resources,fortifications,size of settlements etc.
I'll try and put together a few notes,based on the regional info supplied...Provinces etc. and post over weekend!

If you have any specific areas of research then let me know or post here and I'll try to pore through my books!

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

In reply to queries about resources....Have a few books about pre-historic Britain....Including one specifically referring to Wales, culture and enviroment...
In these there are details,and in some cases...a lot of detail...on local resources,fortifications,size of settlements etc.
I'll try and put together a few notes,based on the regional info supplied...Provinces etc. and post over weekend!

If you have any specific areas of research then let me know or post here and I'll try to pore through my books!

Go right ahead. Good information is always apreciated.