Possible Britain Map

[Ranika]

There are numerous members of this mod who take a bit of issue with Total Realism, as Realism doesn't really seem to come into it for numerous issues, including the barbarian factions, like the poor Britons. Our Britons you can expect to be based upon actual warriors employed by the Britons. The Gauls and Britons had quite different warriors, due to concerns of each. Gaul's kingdoms would've been more interesting in organizing units capable of defense and offense in equal amounts, and some raiding. The Britons were far more interested in raiding and mobility, as that is conducive to inter-tribal warfare. However, the Britons will have some 'heavy' units, such as corrected chariots, they'll have far less swords than the Gauls (the Britons had swords, but not near as many as the Gauls, who had a great abundance of them). The Britons will likely have some greatly varied units, representing tribal differences, with many different weapons, slings, spears, swords, and possibly hammers and the like. We'll see though, there will be a lot of discussion, I hope, so we ensure we have the best, accurate, and interesting variety of British units. In any event, I'm sure you'll be pleased with our conclusions, and I will do my best to keep you updated.

[monkian]

Yes, maybe it should be called Rome- A little bit more realistic



I'm only playing it because it uses nicer skins and removes some of the fantasy units.

I look foward to playing your version

Any chance of having a certain Celtic king called Slaine' with a rather large axe ?

[Ranika]

We'll have to see, whatever our best sources can turn up. I'm aware of the discovery of some large ancient British axes in portions of modern Wales, so there could maybe be a unit that employs them, or perhaps an officer that employs one, but it's really up to what we can confirm, to the best of our knowledge, how many units we plan to give the Britons, etc. If you have any sources that would help, that's always good. We're doing our best for historical accuracy. I'm personally looking forward to a British greatsword unit, because the Britons used actual greatswords quite early compared to most cultures, and they'd make an interesting 'elite' unit, or possibly an officer unit.

[monkian]

I'd be happy to abuse my employess internet connection to help out

We're looking at 240BC onwards yes ?

The Celtic king thing was just a joke really, Slaine was a fave comic character of mine

Nice to know he was based on some facts though.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Do I need to release my pitbull on you, Monkian? I like BD and Comics, but it doesn't belong in this thread...

[monkian]

Do I need to release my pitbull on you, Monkian? I like BD and Comics, but it doesn't belong in this thread...

Kiss my axe !

Duly noted

Sounds good Ranika



I was getting pretty good at ambushing the Gauls with my sneaking warbands.

Ok - heres a list of British Gods- pre Roman Invasion. Thought it might be andy as it also mentions several sites of interest.

Antenociticus The name of this Celtic god is known from three inscriptions found in a small shrine at Benwell near Newcastle-on-Tyne.


Brigantia "The High One," was patron deity of the Brigantes tribe in northern Britain. Associated with water and springs, she was also a goddess of poetry, learning, prophecy, and divination. Links with Minerva include a spear and globe. Another equivalent is the Irish goddess Brigit, namesake of St. Brigit.


Deae Matres ("Mother Goddesses") Usually seen as a trinity, these fertility goddesses are often shown holding baskets of fruit, bread, or fish. The Deae Matres were also associated with water and sacred springs, and sometimes fused with local water deities such as Bath. Sculptures of the Matres also occur at Cirencester, Lincoln, and London.

Dea Nutrix Another form of Mother Goddess is "nursing mother" (Dea Nutrix). Clay statuettes of this goddess, mass-produced in Gaul and exported to Britain, show the young goddess seated in a high-backed wicker chair nursing one or two infants.

Epona The Celtic horse goddess, popular in Gaul and Germany, spread to a lesser extent to Britain via Roman cavalry troops. She is invoked in a small altar at Carvoran on Hadrian's Wall. While always depicted with horses, Epona is sometimes also shown with grain and a patera (offering bowl), which tie her to fertility and prosperity rituals.

Mogons Dedications to this god, whom the Romans identified with Apollo, occur at several fort sites around Hadrian's Wall, including Netherby, Vindolanda, Risingham, and Old Penrith. Mogons was probably a Germanic import, since the Latin name for Mainz is Mogontiacum.

Rosmerta A Celtic goddess usually found as a companion of the Celtic Mercury in Britain, Germany, and Gaul. She appears on a relief in the Gloucester Museum holding a patera over an altar.

Sulis The patron deity of Bath (Aquae Sulis), she was associated with water, hot springs, and healing. The temple at Bath was dedicated to a composite goddess, Sulis Minerva.

Taranis God of thunder and lightning (taren is Welsh for "thunder"), symbolized by a wheel. Known archaeologically in Gaul and Germany, and mentioned by the Roman poet Lucan in his play Pharsalia, he is linked to Jupiter in an altar from Chester.

Veteris A warrior god, may represent a group of deities. At least seven versions of the same name are recorded in 54 inscriptions, most from the eastern half of Hadrian's Wall between Carvoran and Benwell. Based on the modest quality of these monuments, Veteris seems to represent a lower class cult. While linked at Netherby to the god Mogons, he is not identified with any Roman gods.


"Horned God" This unnamed god was widely dispersed in Britain, especially in the south, where he was frequently linked with the Roman god Mercury. He often appears with two short horns in uninscribed reliefs. Variants in Gaul have stag antlers, with one inscription from Roman Paris identifying him with Cemunnos ("the honed one").

[Ranika]

A very, very preliminary unit list, originally put up in the private forums, but maybe some public opinions, bearing in mind this is very very early stuff;

Briton Units - I think these are largely self explanatory, so only described are appearances, and special ability recommendations. Of course, expecting trunications and removals, these are just some initial ideas, please tell me what you think. I know a lot of these units have 'hide in tall grass' or 'hide anywhere' traits, trying to impress the idea of tribal combatants, who rely largely on mobility and stealth to engage their enemies, and numerous 'skirmisher' type fighters, many have javelins or darts. However, included is the purely melee heavy infantry Calwr Chlaiddyfwir, a greatswordsmen unit, and three entries on chariots. They're based upon remains found, reports of their equipment, etc. Non-English names presented are based upon what they would've possibly been called, using an early version of Cornish and Welsh, and what parts of the early Briton tongue known.

Officers/Generals
Lesser General/Impromptu Commander - A chainmaille or bronze armor clad foot warrior with a well-made helmet, with a horse hair plume (that's the word I was looking for! Tadh is plume!) possibly, equipped with a two-handed axe, with some ornate etchings on the blade, possibly, with a longsleeve shirt, possibly woad on the face. Pants should have small checks on them, in several colors.

Standard Bearer - Not sure for this, not a banner though, as banners were not widely used by most of the Britons, if I recall. Perhaps not even have a standard bearer, but instead another type of 'officer' warrior, akin to the Lesser General, but more poorly armored? If we could have as many officers as we wanted, and they don't count toward unit limits, maybe have, instead of a Standard Bearer, a special officer for different units, so the Southern type soldiers have a proper commander/the Caledonians are being overseen by a Caledonian/etc.

Family Member General - Not sure for this either, maybe an elaborate 'Heavy Chariot' type unit, but different from the original, corrected skins and models for the crew. Heavy Chariots are described below, consider those maybe.


Infantry
Tribal Militia - Like Gallic tribal militia, maybe the same unit, with new shield designs/no mow? If different, perhaps they could use bronze daggers or the like, representing the 'low tech' weapons that were still employed in some places, though they were actually more of utensil and tools than they were weapons, but they'd be readily available for a militia if necessary. Maybe just have them still utilizing bronze spear heads?

Southern Tribal Warband - A spear, with javelins, an oval shield, brown linen shirt (or bare-chested?), limed, spiked hair, plaid or checkered pants in vibrant colors, and exposed skin painted with woad. Should be able to hide in tall grass.

Slingers - A leather sling, no shield/small round shield, bare chested or in brown linen shirt, hair either limed and spiked, or long brown hair, with plaid pants in earth tones, and any exposed body woaded. In melee, they should draw a knife or shortsword (think like the dagger on the two-handed sword using British warrior figurine in this thread), and possibly a small round shield. Should be able to hide in tall grass.

Southern/Midland Swordsmen - A Halstatt-style short sword, woaded body/bare chested, a round or rectangular shield, limed, spiked hair, or, if Midland, long, brown hair. Maybe have some javelins thrown before a charge, emphasizing the 'skirmish' capacities of the Britons. Possibly include a short, plaid or checkered cloak. Possibly be able to hide in tall grass.

Brycalawre - 'Great Champions', with a bronze 'horned' helmet maybe, an elaborate oval or round shield, a longsword, bronze armor or chainmaille, a checkered cloak, and a mustache, goattee, or beard. Alternatively, same armor, but instead have them with a large axe, and no shield (I'd opt toward the formerly mentioned though). Another variation, perhaps using a spear, instead, as the spear was, while cheaper, a highly valued weapon in Celtic culture, and a champion employing a spear would hardly be out of the order. Possibly able to hide in tall grass.

Calwr Chlaiddyfwir - Similar to the model of the British greatswordsmen presented here (private forum only, isn't shown here), except change the hair color to brown maybe, and instead of a full beard, perhaps just a goatee. Have the AP 'armor piercing' trait for their attack, and a high attack. Should have a long build time and high expense, likely be the heaviest infantry available to the Britons.

Caledonian Swordsmen - Should be the only sword using soldiers available in Caledonia, red, spiked hair, beards, wearing a shirt lined with fur possibly, spiralled tattoos, Hallstat-style short swords (perhaps even bronze swords?), small square shields, plaid, earth tone pants, possibly a similar cloak. Maybe give them a javelin or dart thrown before the charge. Should be expensive and slow to build, in any event, to keep their numbers low, since swords were signficantly more rare in north Britain than they were in the south, or require an advanced barracks structure before they can be built, but otherwise be statistically similar to other low-tier Briton swordsmen, not the higher level swordsmen. Improved hide in forest, possibly hide anywhere?

Caledonian Warband - Like southern tribal warbands, but with red spiked hair, small round or square shields, with javelins or darts, and a spear for melee, and spiral tattoos, and earth tone colors instead of vibrant colors. Improved hide in forest, possibly hide anywhere?

Silures Warband - Available only in the Ordovices province (what is it named now? Has it been decided?), a bare chested, woaded sword warband, with well-made Hallstat-style short swords, square shields, and dark hair, with tan skin.

Hammer Warriors - Available only in the Ordovices province (what is it named now? Has it been decided?), warriors employing hammers, with a small square shield, short cloak, shirt, checkered pants. They should definitely have the AP trait, as their hammer will smash through armor. Maybe require a Temple to Sucellus to build them, instead of confine them to a single province, since their patron was Sucellus?

Calawre Tars Ordovices (Champions Of The Ordovices) - Like Hammer Warriors (similar requirements and the like), confined definitely to the Ordovices province though, but wear bronze or chain armor, helmets, cloaks, checkered trews, and use a slightly larger, square shield, with a hammer.

Netarlach Ta Ynys Manaw ("Bravemen from the Isle of Man", just a little something to give the early early Celtic Manx some presence, as they did 'hire out' some warriors to British tribes) - Black or brown haired swordsmen, with elaborately braided hair, dressed in brown shirts, with checkered cloaks and pants, 'white' body paint (it is actually a very light version of 'woad', possibly) smeared, not styled, on their faces, and over their beards, which should be relatively full, and forked and braided at the end. They should have small oval shields, with shortswords, and short distance javelins. Hide in tall grass, possibly hide anywhere. Only available in whichever province the Isle of Man is part of, or possibly as mercenaries in the British Isles (Hibernia and Britain)

Druidae - Not as a buildable unit, or, if it were a buildable unit, it should have a VERY long build time, and extremely high expense. However, they should appear as rebels in Mona if the province is rebel, or start the Britons with a single unit of them, but not allow them to train more. They should use a hammer, a small square shield, a cloak, and still maintain their chant ability.

Chariots
Southern Chariots - A chariot with two riders, bronze fittings and hubs, a shirtless driver in checkered or plaid pants in vibrant tones, with elaborate woad designs on his body, and limed, spiked hair, with a rider with a sword, and javelins, dressed in an iron helmet, with chain armor, a long sleeve shirt under it, and with chain or leather leggings, and an oval shield.

Midland Chariots - Similar to the Southern type, but no bronze fittings, earth tone colors instead of vibrant colors, brown hair for the driver, and the rider wearing bronze, not chain armor, a bit lighter armored, but perhaps a longer range attack than a southern version would have, both driver and rider have woad on them. Similar chariots were found in northern Ireland, and should be buildable there as well.

Heavy Chariots - Similar to the Southern Chariot, but add bronze fittings and hubs on the wheels, and have both driver and rider dressed similarly in armor, with the rider, once more, outfitted with javelins, and a sword, but perhaps a smaller shield. Maybe these could be the 'Family Member' style of chariots?

[Ranika]

The Britons did use numerous 'big' weapons, for their nobles and greatest warriors. They did not have the iron reserves available to Gauls or Iberians or Romans, because they did not, individually, control much land. They would sometimes make BIG weapons, like greatswords and big axes (which were essentially modified wood axes, but a heavy axehead is a heavy axehead). There are also some evidences of falcata-type swords, but those are fachoira, and probably brought over by Gaelic raiders, who, in their early periods, employed these weapons. The Britons were bigger on spears, slings, javelins, that manner of thing, lots of wooden weapons, including proto-maces that were essentially glorified clubs, wrapped with leather strips, or with bronze or sometimes iron fixtures in them. The Britons are going to be, I think, based largely on their actual historical strengths. That's mobility and raiding abilities, so units that can hide well in forests/tall grass/anywhere, will probably be a bit more prevalent with the Britons than other armies, more 'fast' units. I'm thinking greatswords and big axes for officers now, as while the evidences exist, they were quite rare. Unless units employing them were small, I don't think I could see them as being too realistic. But an officer accompanying his men with well-made, modified wood axe, or a big two-handed sword, that'd make sense. Two-handed swords were more popular with the Gaels, who imported a lot of iron, and had fair enough iron reserves at the time, and have many more examples of the large two-handed swords from the BCs, but they're clearly based on earlier British greatswords.