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Thread: Shimazu

  1. #1
    Member Member Katasaki Hirojima's Avatar
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    As nice as their bonus is,they are not in a posistion to win.I'v played them on normal countless times,and theres no way to beat the Imagawa within two years.Why?Because no sooner then you capture that land,it revlots and makes a LARGE Imagawa sided army.Worse,You've committed everything you had to that,and Ronin are now invadeing your island from Shikoku because your garrison is eleswhere.

    In my most revent battle,I had captured all the Imagawa land within two years,and,two of those lands revloted no sooner then I got them.I did everything I chould,but they still revolted because you just don't have enough men at this point in the game.Now I'v got to LARGE Imagawa armys.ALso,during the time I was invadeing Imagawan lands on the island,Ronin invaded bungo.No biggy,that province is worthless.But,Imagawa conquered them,and BUNGO REvolted against them with a HUGE Pheasant army.My military desperately tryed to fight off Imagawa,meanwhile the Ronin kept divideing their armys and conquering my land.I did manage to push the Imagawa off my island,but then TWO MORE Pheasant revolts caused me to bottle up in Hizen.This is where I cuss my computer out for the last time and turn the game off.

    Don't tell me you can get rid of the imagawa early,phesant revolts and loyalist samurai revolts will pop up like crazy in response because you don't have enough men early on to garrison properly.

    ------------------
    "I maintain none the less that Yin-Tang Dualism can bo overcome.With sufficent enlightment,we can give substance to any distinction:Mind without body,north without south,pleasure without pain.Renember,enlightment is a function of will power,not of physical strength."-Shang-ji Yang,essays on mind and matter.
    I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength.- Shang-ji Yang

  2. #2
    Member Member Darth Wart's Avatar
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    Dude, I sympathize: I think the game becomes much more difficult on "Normal" than it was on "Easy." It's a steep learning curve.

    I'm not sure if the Shimazu, or, heck, any of the clans are winnable on "Expert," (at least not without a hefty dose of autosave/autoload to fix problems) but you can definitely win the game with Shimazu on "Normal." My advice:

    1. Don't invade the Imagawa lands on Kyushu until you're good and ready. And when you are, invade them by port -- at Hizen -- rather than marching your way through Chikugo, which will bleed your armies white when you take it. The advantages of this approach are twofold: a) the Imagawa port is in Hizen, meaning that if you take that province, they won't be able to reinforce the other two; and b) the Imagawa only build a castle in Chikugo late into the game, so Imawaga reinforcements shouldn't "grow" there.

    2. If you set up a defensive garrison of, say, 4-5 units in Bungo, this should prevent the Rebs from invading that province until you're ready to deal with them. Just don't make it more: I've noticed this will cause the AI to build up troops on its side of the border. And no less -- as they certainly will invade if you only have 2 or so units stationed there. Also, build a castle and stuff those 4 units in there: it's been observed that the AI seems reluctant to invade a province when you have troops garrisoned in a castle, whereas it doesn't seem reluctant to invade the same province if you had the exact same troops standing around in the province outside the castle.

    3. Lastly, whoever said that it was necessary to clean the Imagawa off Kyushu in 2 years? Was this a dare? Are you supposed to be ashamed if it takes longer or something? I don't believe there's that much of a hurry: take your time and save Chikugo for last. The important thing is cutting off their port, by means of which they'll keep sending reinforcements.

    Sometimes this game is stupid, dude, I know.

    And Merry Christmas.



    [This message has been edited by Darth Wart (edited 12-24-2000).]

  3. #3
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    My advice is not to engage a pheasant army until you have invented the shotgun.

    A peasant (ronin) army on the other hand will remain in its home province until you attack a ronin province anywhere on the map. A particularly advanced ronin general may also make unprovoked attacks on undefended provinces.

    My advice is not to engage the ronin until you have elimated the immediate threats from opposition clans, unless a ronin province is so juicy as to be worth the risk.

    This especially applies to an Oda player.

    ------------------
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

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  4. #4
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    pheasants are for eating, not invading..

    good work Darth Wart, an educational post!


    [This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 12-24-2000).]

  5. #5
    Member Member hecose's Avatar
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    Shimazu is not impossible to win with. I have played and won with Shimazu on Expert. I wanted to try that because many people say it's impossible to win as Shimazu on Expert.

    I don't remember whether I conquered Imagawa's provinces in Kyushu within 2 years, but I do remember that I used my Daimyo in all my early battles. Did you use yours? The Daimyo gives honour bonuses to your soldiers.

    I also garrisoned Bungo with a few units so ronins have never invaded me. (maybe I was lucky?)

    As for revolts, make sure you always keep track of loyalty of those provinces. You can send in shinobis to calm the population down, or garrison it with more soldiers to ensure loyalty. Imagawa specialises in ninjas and shinobis so those revolts might be caused by Imagawa shinobis. Another thing is you might want to temporarily set tax rate low to bring up loyalty.

    One thing you need to be careful about is your first attack at Imagawa, which probably will be the river province. Make sure you bring lots of people and preferbly attack in spring when it rains (rain makes archers less effective). Also use your Daimyo to lead the army to have the honour bonus. Once you get the river province, Imagawa is reluctant to take it back because it's hard to take river provinces. (well, unless after the first battle you have very few soldiers left)

  6. #6
    Senior Member Senior Member Dark Phoenix's Avatar
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    To stop the ronin from invading at the beginning is that if you keep a neighbouring province ungarrisioned they will move accross and take it, so toavoid this just leave a ashi unit there.

    With th problem that you are having in the revolting provinces, have you tried moving your Daimyo there which gives a honour bonus to provinces nearby if I remmeber correctly.

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    DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon
    DP is correct - Shiro

  7. #7
    Member Member Katasaki Hirojima's Avatar
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    People say they can usually get rid of the Imagawa within the first few years.I ask HOW?I attempted this,attacking with my garrison plus any troops I had.I took all of Imagawa's provinces as said,but,since I used my garrison to attack,large amounts of Ronin slipped in.Then all the provinces revolted because my garrison wasn't large enough.I did try and beat the Imagawa with the traditonal approach but Imagawa gets more koku then I do,and can keep a larger military then me.

    I know you can beat the Imagawa eventually,but by then a big purple blob is dominateing the map.....

    ------------------
    "I maintain none the less that Yin-Tang Dualism can bo overcome.With sufficent enlightment,we can give substance to any distinction:Mind without body,north without south,pleasure without pain.Renember,enlightment is a function of will power,not of physical strength."-Shang-ji Yang,essays on mind and matter.
    I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength.- Shang-ji Yang

  8. #8
    Member Member Anssi Hakkinen's Avatar
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    Early in the game, Ashigaru are no more viable an alternative to YS than they are later in the game - tactically, that is. However, they have one significant advantage: you get two YA for the price of one YS, which means that a YA-based army prevents rebellions twice as effectively as a YS-based army. In the beginning, it's best to go for quantity rather than quality, as un-STW-like it might seem.

    ------------------
    "If you start a fight, you must win it. Fighting, however, is not your objective. The most important thing is to win without fighting."
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member The Black Ship's Avatar
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    Always attack Chikuzen before attempting to go for Chikugo (the bridge province), often Imagawa retreats without a fight This is bad since it makes fighting for Hizen much tougher, but is still easier than fighting a bridge battle first.

    I do something like this...leave 60 men in Bungo(re-inforce when able - preferably with under-manned units depleted from battle) and 120 in Higo, consolidate the bulk in Buzen for the blitz in Chikuzen. Hopefully Imagawa will fight! If so be sure to inflict maximum casualties. Be sure to feint in Chikugo with your men from Higo, this will hold off reinforcements, or if the AI decides to reinforce in Chikuzen you can take Chikugo instead! Hizen must be taken soon thereafter or you'll be stuck in a war of attrition which Mori will exploit! If the AI still possesses Chikugo watch for an opening, guaranteed he'll pull some troops back to Hizen if he feels threatened, or go for Bungo. When he does either waltz right in and conquer the province

    Of course this means you have to allow for maximum troop training at the expense of infrastructure, but once the island is yours you can build up then

    Hope this helps you, I've won on Shimazu at Hard-christian before (what a bear that was ), and Expert-buddhist many times too by these few set-piece moves at the beginning. Sometimes I feel like I'm playing the same moves too often, but hey they still work

    [This message has been edited by The Black Ship (edited 12-25-2000).]
    All we are saying....is give peas a chance - Jolly Green Giant

  10. #10
    Member Member JoBeare's Avatar
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    This is my method of playing Shimazu. If you try it and don't succeed try it again. If you think its lunacy, try it anyway. This works for my 99.9% of the time.

    Spr 1530 - Start cranking out troops at Satsuma. Pull all of your troops to Bungo except the YA in Nagato and Buzen.
    Aut 1530 - Drop your tax rate to very low. Attack Iyo with your combined force. It should total 311. The ronin in Iyo will retreat to Tosa.
    Win 1530 - Attack Tosa with everything. One unit left in Iyo should be enough to keep it from revolting. The ronin put up stiff resistance, but they won't have Chosakobae (not sure how to spell) as their taisho so it is very winnable.
    Sum 1531 - Storm the castle in Tosa.
    Aut 1531 - Take Awa
    Win 1531 - Attack Sanuki. The ronin will retreat to Awaji.

    By now Mori should have taken Nagato. Imagawa should have taken Buzen and Bungo. I usually leave one YA in Awa and two in Sanuki. Pull the rest of the army back to Iyo and get ready to take back Bungo.

    The next "if" is lower case because it usually happens. "If" you get one of your fallen provinces to revolt, go on the offensive. Pull your armies together and drive towards Hizen via Chikuzen (like Black Ship said). Between your original army, the loyalist, and the constant stream coming out of Satsuma, you should be so numerically superior that Imagawa will retreat all the way back to the castle in Hizen. Once Hizen is taken then it's just a matter of mopping up.

    Once Imagawa is taken out. Move your army back to Buzen and attack Nagato. I usually get to this point by 1534. Mori usually puts up a fight in one of his western provinces but the rest capitulate pretty easily. Takeda may put up some resistance in Aki but that is about it.

    Build up a YA army in Sanuki using a spear dojo in Tosa. Once Mori is engaged in the west try to move into Bizen from Sanuki. Don't fight any battles. Just take what you can get without taking any loses. This should tie up forces in the east while your main army walks over the west.

    You should have Mori and Takeda wiped out by 1538. 1542 would be about the latest and 1536 is about the earliest that I've done it. Take a breather here. Oda puts up a lot of resistance compared to the previous adversaries. This is a good time to concentrate on teching up or prepare to go christian. Start bumping the tax rate.

    There are a lot of things covered here. I may have glossed over some crucial points.

    1 100% of koku should go to troop production. Spear dojo in Tosa is the second priority and the Sword dojo in Satsuma is the third priority. Other than that, no facilities should be invested in.

    2 Don't get your daimyo killed. I guess it goes without saying but it is something that you need to keep in your mind at all times. You will be doing a lot of fighting with your daimyo and no heir to take his place.

    3 Don't lose Satsuma. Here is another game ender. Give up any of your other provinces to Imagawa or Mori. Most of them are pretty low for farm production and their loss should be more than made up from taking the ronin land.

    4 Loyalist revolts happen. Use them to your advantage. By lowering the tax rate you are almost immune to them and you are almost guaranteed of getting free troops when you are attacked. A loyalist army is usually comprised of Samurai including ND and CA (these are priceless). I can't over emphasize the advantage this gives you early in the game. I think loyalist revolts are more likely to happen using 120 man units versus 60 man units. Just a thought.

    Good luck

    JoBeare

  11. #11
    Member Member Che's Avatar
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    I'm playing my second campaign with Shimazu on normal, and it's all being going well until now. Oda just kicked the bucket, so I have the South, Ronin have a few provinces (Hida, Kaga, and Etchu) in the middle, and Hojo has the North. The border is pretty much the original one between Oda and the two blue guys, plus I have Echizen.
    I didn't believe people when they talked about the "Hojo Horde," but I've been corrected. And worse, his lands are better developed (and more profitable) than mine, so holding him off won't work. Is there still hope?

    Also, how do you get those icons on the side?
    Hasta la victoria siempre
    -Che Guevara

  12. #12
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    When facing the Hojo Horde, best to "port attack" before you're swamped.
    Good luck.

  13. #13
    Member Member Link(Micke)San's Avatar
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    Hi all.
    I have won the campaigne with Shimatzu on expret level....and now i am doing the same clan with only ashiguras units(ashis,arq,musk), yari sams and normal archers.......it start to get hot now i am facing hojo in middle map, but its a challenge.......i miss my monks lol

    To prevent revolts keep lower taxes in the begining to take out imagawa!!!

    Good luck all......to become the true SHOGUN

    ------------------
    May the honour be with you all....
    -LinkSan
    May the honour be with you all....
    -LinkSan Daimyo of The Chain Clan

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
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    JoBeare...I am pronuncing your strategy for Shimazu as BRILLIANT!
    I moved the Daimyo and the forces from the island into Bungo, leaving nothing in Buzen and one unit in Higa. Taking Iyo immediately I left one unit in Bungo. Imagawa
    refrained from taking Buzen. A unit each turn
    from production moved the garrisons from Higa
    to Bungo, Bungo to Iyo. I immediately followed Iyo with an attack on Tosa. Tho I had the barest numerical advantage the defender was mostly ashi and they routed quickly causing little loss. They retreated to the castle with over 200 in number so I waited till they'd lost half that before assaulting, one more season.Imagawa took Buzen that season. It revolted, bringing 300 troops the next season when Imagawa also took Bungo. The loyalists fought and lost (almost all were ashi and all were Honor 0) but they killed off 150 Imagawa troops. The rest of the Ronin island fell in two seasons. I left all the victorious troops(4 SA, 3YS, 2AS) as garrison for the two island border provinces and returned to Iyo with the Daimyo to join with the YS garrison there. That same turn Imagawa sent 400 troops at Higa, where I'd accumulated 300, and he lost 300 and the battle. Buzen revolted again, bring 180 troops. The next season saw Bungo fall to the Daimyo and Buzen reclaimed by loyalists, bottling up 60 Imagawa troops there in the castle he'd built! Two seasons later I took Chikuzen, again with a bare numbers advantage. The following season BOTH of the last two Imagawa provinces were taken, again with the barest of numerical advantages in each. It is now Winter of 1533 and both islands are secured!
    Note that I lowered taxes from the first season and never suffered any threat of revolt in the Imagawa lands. The castle in Buzen still holds out and the Imagawa port province castle holds over 200 troops still under seige by my Daimyo. The Higa battle, where Imagawa brought 4 YS, 1YA, and 2SA against my 1SA,2YS, and 2YA also won me the right to build a Sword Dojo so Shimazu is off to MY fastest start, ever. Mori has not bothered my little garrison on his border, either.
    Again I say, BRILLIANT!


    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  15. #15
    Member Member JoBeare's Avatar
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    ShaiHulud,
    Thanks, I was wondering if anyone read my post. I was expecting to get flamed but its nice to be complimented.

    JoBeare

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
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    Lol....I rarely see flames here...The Org seems to attract more constructive criticism than flame. As for being noticed, perhaps it's because your approach was novel and few had even tried it. Thus, they had no comment to make. To me, it sounded intriguing and I had to see what could be made of it. I just wish I'd been able to get more troops from loyalist revolts. I was even tempted to prolong the battle with Imagawa to try that..but that would be cheating! hehe
    I'm about 10 years farther into the game. I've taken Bizen and Awaji and now have but 3 provinces to garrison while I build up forces and production. I'm somewhat stymied in that Mori and Oda are both facing Awaji with large armies but I'm not ready to burst out yet. I expect to do so from Nagato, into the Takeda (formerly Mori) lands.
    Hojo and Uesugi are trading lands, with Uesugi getting the worst of it, so there'll be a Hojo horde to face.
    In retrospect, I left too large a garrison force in Sanuki and Awa when I turned back to face Imagawa. They were never threatened and the retreating Ronin forces made a nice buffer in Awaji. Perhaps, by your standard, I've misplayed your plan by pausin too long but losses and poor harvests have to be taken into account. Also, Mori built a large force in Harima, threatening Oda and Oda built up,too, so I was forced to respond in that area. The Nagato force has been stunted because of this but shows overwhelming advantage in the area. Just need to build a bit more there, get ND into play and blow out the trusting Takeda!
    Post away if you have any other nice insights. I'd read many strategies for Shimazu but this is, by far, the most dynamic
    of them all!

    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

    [This message has been edited by ShaiHulud (edited 01-07-2001).]
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

  17. #17
    Member Member JoBeare's Avatar
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    ShaiHulud,
    A couple of things. You must be playing with 60 man units. Revolts seem to be a little more benificial with 120 man units. You get twice as many loyalist and it seems more likely that the enemy will spread themselves thin. So its more likely to happen.

    You are right about Awaji. It should be left as a buffer between youself and Oda. Although I have pondered the idea of taking Awaji and Kawachi early on, I have yet to do so. It seems the prudent thing to do is take out the provices in the west first.

    Don't worry about Mori and Sanuki. He may attack it and usualy does, but just give way by retreating to Iyo. Mori has too many other concerns to occupy him. Namely Takeda, Oda, and your main army coming from the west. Mori can rarely take more than Sanuki without seriously depleting his forces else where. By pulling Mori into Sanuki you may entice Oda to attack the over stretched Mori.

    A point on harvest and production. I try to build a spear dojo in Tosa as soon as possible. Then crank out a constant stream of YA. With the honor bonus's of Tosa and your daimyo you should be looking at a +3 fairly early in the game. I budget my koku so that Tosa doesn't miss a turn at kicking out a unit. So if I only get 400 koku for the year, I don't spend money anywhere else.

    Hojo is beating Uesugi already. Hmm, things dont't look good for you.

    JoBeare

  18. #18
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
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    lol...It's a LOT worse, now! Oda ignored Hojo and piled his armies into Harima and Mimisaka, then sat there, building them up. I took all the Mori and Takeda lands left EXCEPT that buggering bridge province in Takeda land. It seems (to me) as suicide to attack Takeda Shingen with his 800+ troops there!@ hehe Oda tried it and lost about 2K troops. Now he's got two provinces left (Hojo has the rest) Takeda has his ONE province, and I have a fine mess to deal with.
    Don't know why you like Ashi that much. They can't face YS well and when one runs, the rest soon follow. I go for quality over quantity, using YS from Nagato's improved armories, Monks and ND from the home base. Horrible luck with harvests over a LONG period haven't helped much, either.hehe
    So, the Horde's assault has already started and I get to thrash overwhelming armies with progressively smaller armies. Still, My base is good and I have almost 2 dozen Shinobi behind Hojo lines, stirring up trouble. Shinobi are the ONLY units I've ever used port-movement-behind-enemy-lines for. Seems fair to me. After all, they are supposed to be very small groups of men, not armies. The Dutch have arrived and I start producing guns next season so I have some possibilities before me.
    Next time I try this strategy I'll push rapidly into the Mori lands. The ten year pause for development allowed too much time for Hojo to devour Uesugi, Takeda and Imagawa.
    (Post Script: I am using 60 man units and am playing Expert level. I took Bizen and CAN fall back to Sanuki. Holding Bizen offers multiple threats to Mori and IF I actually got to Kawachi early, would do the same to Oda. That causes them to create armies, rather than garrisons, in the bordering provinces. But, I'm only as far as Awaji on that front. )
    ------------------
    Wind fells blossoms, rain
    fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

    [This message has been edited by ShaiHulud (edited 01-08-2001).]
    O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

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