Did Hollywood get Alexander right?

[Devastatin Dave]

http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/34381.htm

Alexander liked a bearded taco as well as a hat hunk of sausage, no doubt. But it appears that there are some complaints about the movie actually showing some insight of his sexuality. You guys know that usually I'm not the biggest fan of "alternate lifestyles" but I do think in order to be true to the character of Alexander you have to show that he really liked to hang out with the boys on occasion. Now for the rest of the picture, God only knows if they get anything historically correct about him. What do you guys think of the importance of showing this man's sexual influences in his life?

[Nelson]

Dave, I believe Alexander did kill one of his male lovers in a fit of rage. If the film does not explore his AC/DC nature then it will not adequately portray the mercurial violent temper that lead him to murder a very close friend. I'm hoping the movie tells it like it was, or at least how most historians think it was.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I'm really pleased they're doing this one right. I thought the total exclusion of any romantic relationship between Petroclus and Achilles in Troy was a massive let down.

[ah_dut]

Yes indeed, If a man is gay and that makes part of him what he is, why not show it that way?

[Hurin_Rules]

Yes, I think it is a sign of our immaturity as a culture that we can't have accurate depictions of other cultures whose society and sexual practices differ from our own. Or maybe hollywood just underestimates us. Making Patroclus Achilles 'cousin' in Troy was laughable. At least Stone is taking a chance, and for that you have to give him some credit.

[BDC]

Gay heroes don't go down well in America maybe?

[Don Corleone]

Actually, that's a good point, BDC. Kinda hard to have a typical American action hero when you think all gay guys are fruity. This is where I think things like "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" does homosexuals a disservice, as it continues stereotypes. Maybe all AMERICAN gay men are effeminate, but that's hardly a mandate.

If Alexander was bisexual, and from most accounts of what I read, there was little doubt, I think they should bring that up.

Hadrian had a male slave he took around with him as a lover. A scandal arose about this, but it had more to do with him acting as the catcher. Apparently in Rome, as far as homosexuality was concerned, fine to give, shameful to receive. I think they thought that put you in a 'woman-like' role.

What's more, and I better step lightly here, didn't the "10,000" of the Persian empire sleep exclusively with other men because that thought that sex with women would weaken them?

[Slyspy]

Like many others I was annoyed by the censoring of the Achilles/Petroclus (sp?) relationship in Troy so I hope Alexander avoids this. Mind you Troy had South American llamas wandering around in the city so I guess missing out a homosexual relationship is nothing really.

[Aurelian]

I imagine that the money-men in Hollywood just aren't eager to take a risk on big budget action films that have homosexual or bi-sexual heroes. The studios are out to make money, and a big picture like "Troy" or "Alexander" is usually their main investment for the year. The main audience for an action picture is usually young men, and having a gay subtext in your storyline is not a way to win that audience.

"Troy" was also trying to pull in the 'horny female' demographic with Brad Pitt, Orlando Bloom, and a love story. I just wish they'd thought about the horny male demographic and gotten a better looking Helen. Oh, well. You know there's trouble in a movie about the Trojan War when Achilles is better looking than Helen.

The studios weren't likely to want to deal with the hassle of a gay Achilles and all the attendant controversy. The movie would probably have been blacklisted by the religious folk, and a gay Brad Pitt might have cut his sex appeal for the ladies. Of course, they could have done it more subtly, like the famous 'oysters and snails' scene in "Spartacus"; but that would have just creeped people out and diverted from the main love story.

Oliver Stone, though, will probably be able to get away with more than the usual run of the mill director because he has street-cred, and people expect his movies to be a little more intense and challenging than standard fare. I'm looking forward to seeing what he does with the issue. I have to say that Colin Farrell certainly looks gay as Alexander... with the bleach-blond hair and the short little skirt. I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope that the final movie isn't ridiculous.

[Steppe Merc]

I think that the movie will be very inhistorical. But he did sleep with boys very often, though later on he we went more to women. But pretty much all greeks and Macedonians had boy lovers as well as women. It was normal.

What's more, and I better step lightly here, didn't the "10,000" of the Persian empire sleep exclusively with other men because that thought that sex with women would weaken them?

No that was the Immortals. Your thinking of the Greek Sacred band, wich supposedly slept with each other, so they wouldn't run in front of their lovers. Historians aren't sure if it's true, however.

I just wish they'd thought about the horny male demographic and gotten a better looking Helen. Oh, well. You know there's trouble in a movie about the Trojan War when Achilles is better looking than Helen.

I thought Helen was hot... though I wish she had brown hair and brown eyes. But then, they all should have been darker complexion, as well as Alexander. While sometimes it's said he's blond, it's more comonly excepted that he was light brown haired, or dark blond at the most.

[PanzerJaeger]

"It was said ... that Alexander was never defeated, except by Hephaistion's thighs," the aged Ptolemy (Anthony Hopkins) says in narrating the saga.

Whether right or wrong, i can say from a strictly business oriented standpoint that this will not go well with people of any "group", young men, old men, wemon, whatever...

[Colovion]

It says that in the movie?

Haha, that'll be amusing to see who laughs and who gets that "shocked and disgusted" look.

[Goofball]

"It was said ... that Alexander was never defeated, except by Hephaistion's thighs," the aged Ptolemy (Anthony Hopkins) says in narrating the saga.

Whether right or wrong, i can say from a strictly business oriented standpoint that this will not go well with people of any "group", young men, old men, wemon, whatever...

Well, there is one obvious group I can think of that will like it...

[monkian]

The steelworkers of America ?


We work hard, and we play hard

[Colovion]

hot stuff coming throoo!

*flails wrist*

tee hee

[Hosakawa Tito]

Actually, that's a good point, BDC. Kinda hard to have a typical American action hero when you think all gay guys are fruity. This is where I think things like "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" does homosexuals a disservice, as it continues stereotypes. Maybe all AMERICAN gay men are effeminate, but that's hardly a mandate.

The effeminate stereotype, like most, is completely false. I know some homosexual cons from Attica State Prison that could/and did beat the living daylights out of just about anyone. One, a male prostitute from Manhattan named Tasha, had under gone hormone therapy to grow breasts. He/she was one of the most feared/respected cons in the jail. Nobody dared to cheat Tasha out of payment, cigarettes usually, for services rendered.

[Goofball]

*runs thru room singing "It's Raining Men" and pinches DevDave's bum on the way by*

[PanzerJaeger]

Somehow i feel i shouldve been born 100 years ago...

[Don Corleone]

Look man, just cause you or I agree or disagree with certain behaviors, facts is facts. It really is the big 3 of monotheism (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) that have issue with homosexuality. There's all kinds of instances of prominent gay men and women in cultures outside those spheres of influence.

Can anyone offer any insight on why gay men (Andrew Sullivan excepted) themselves pander to that stereotype? When you see "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy", is the mindset "well, even if we have to camp it up to get on TV, better to be publicly out than not" ?

[Hurin_Rules]

I can tell you that a lot of gay men at least really dislike the whole flaming persona. A good friend of mine who's gay detests it all as a stereotype that straight people have used against gays. He dresses in jeans and t-Shirts and is a big guy who works out and could kick the crap out of most other guys. The stereotype certainly doesn't fit him, and in fact he actively discourages it in others.

[Beirut]

Gay heroes don't go down well in America maybe?

Oh I don't know, my brother's boyfriend was a US Marine. Arent they heroes?

[Slyspy]

Yes but what about the llamas in Troy? Were they gay?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gay heroes don't go down well in America maybe?

Scratches head


I guess it depends on who their going down on

Sorry I couldnt resist.

[Don Corleone]

That's what's ruining Western civilization!!! Gay llamas in Troy!!! By the way, not to open another can of worms, but I've read the Illiad several times, and honestly, I never got that Achilles and Patroclus were gay. That they were rather chummy, sure. That Achilles was a whiny git when he didn't get his way? Absolutely. That whole scene of him wrapping his arms around Thetis' legs (his mother) and crying because Briseis got taken away from him, I remember well. Did they actually mention the two of them being intimate in the book, or are we using the filter of "close male friends, ancient Greece, must be gay..."?

[Slyspy]

I'm not so sure that the modern distinction of hetero-, bi- and homosexual would have applied so it is rather difficult to tell.

Those llamas were gay then? Thought so. Still its a long way to travel from the Andes just to have your honeymoon ruined by some angry Greeks.

[PanzerJaeger]

Oh I don't know, my brother's boyfriend was a US Marine. Arent they heroes?

Yea he is, but i wouldnt suggest him mentioning that little tidbit.

[Beirut]

Panzer,

Gotcha!

"Shhhhhhhhh..."

[Dhepee]

That's what's ruining Western civilization!!! Gay llamas in Troy!!! By the way, not to open another can of worms, but I've read the Illiad several times, and honestly, I never got that Achilles and Patroclus were gay. That they were rather chummy, sure. That Achilles was a whiny git when he didn't get his way? Absolutely. That whole scene of him wrapping his arms around Thetis' legs (his mother) and crying because Briseis got taken away from him, I remember well. Did they actually mention the two of them being intimate in the book, or are we using the filter of "close male friends, ancient Greece, must be gay..."?

It has to do with the Greek words used. In English if I say "I love you" the meaning of that will be largely contextual, are you my brother, close friend, father, spouse, lover? Classical Greek was much more specific. It would use different words to show different contextual meanings. There were several versions of the word "love" each having a different meaning. The argument is that the verb forms in the Classical Greek show that Achilles "loved" Patrocolus as more than just a friend.

[Don Corleone]

AAAH. Eros, not philos. Okay, well, granted I read it when I was in a Catholic high school.

[English assassin]

I'm not so sure that the modern distinction of hetero-, bi- and homosexual would have applied so it is rather difficult to tell.

This is an important point. I think I read that to be exclusively homosexual was not enormously well thought of, but to be bisexual, and particularly for an adult man to have a sort of mentoring plus relationship with a teenage boy, was unremarkable.

Without wanting to overstep the boundaries of the board, my mate who read classics tells me that certain sorts of modern gay sexual behaviour would not have been well thought of. Anything that might make you say "ouch", if you get my meaning.

Somehow I doubt the film is going to go to that level of detail. I'm not sure it needs to, after all Alexander whould have had an unremarkable sexuality to a Greek, so it might in a sense be truer to the story if not to history to give him a sexuality we would find unremarkable today. Though I did find the Patroclus cop out in Troy pathetic.