Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderMan
Pellinor:


I do not agree with your asessment that formations were just for show, neither that the last men on the phalanx would be the first to run off.

First of all you are trying to compare napoleonic war formations of musketeers with ancient phalangites: the differences are too obvious to enumerate but ill give you a clue; gunpowder.

Yes there are differences, but there are also similarities (which is rather the point of analogies). Why did Napoleon attack in columns, and why was he so successful, when the use of cannon and muskets would suggest that a large mass of men was just a big target? Why was it not better to split into two or more smaller (narrower, shallower, or both) columns to diffuse the incoming fire?

The only reason I can find is the morale factor: big masses of men are scary to the enemy, and comforting to the men in them.

One would predict that if the point of the column is to break the enemy's morale before they can do enough damage to the column to break it, then men with high morale (able to shrug off the imposing impression) in a line formation (to maximise damage to the column and break it quicker) should be able to stop it. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the British Army.

And didn't Napoleon have something to say about the relationship between the moral and the physical, in war?

Not conclusive, but suggestive.

Second of all you are providing the very sketchy observation that men in the rear lines yould run first due to them being scared from a battle they cannot see. I will say this: the largest number of casualties in the phalanx happened only when the phalanx formation broke up, prior to that it was minimal. Now, if the phalangites in the back rows did not push how then was the formation broken when they left (the phalanx certainly did not evaporate from the rear) and if neither phalanx broke, how were all the phalanx battles resolved, none of them lasted for long from what I know.
Can I ask a counter question? If the rear ranks are pushing against the front ranks, and the front ranks fled, where did they go?

You are arguing for a dense mass of men pushing forward and fighting in a confined space (I note that a 6' spear, never mind a 20' pike, is an impractical weapon for that fighting style): surely this completely precludes any chance of the front row moving anywhere except into the enemy. The only people who could flee (ignoring those who could fly or burrow into the ground) are those at the sides or at the back.

The choice for the people at the front is just to fight: if they turn to flee into the press of men behind they just put themselves into more danger: the enmy is just as close, cannot be avoided, and has your back to strike without fear of you striking back or defending yourself. As you say, most casualties were inflicted in the rout: if the front ranks started to flee first, then they would all die in the battle *before* the general rout spread. They'd probably caus the general rout by doing so, but they'd die in the front line.

My hypothesis is that the fighting was a bit looser (in general). The front ranks try to kill each other, while the next few ranks poke spears or pikes over their shoulders to help out and the rear ranks provide moral support. Occasionally people will get over-enthusiastic and push a bit, but this is not going to be liked much by those in the front rank (who are trying *not* to get speared). Victory goes to the side which breaks the enemy's morale first.

It is *not* a case of killing all the enemy, or disrupting their formation (though those may affect their morale): the quickest way to get an enemy off the battlefield is to induce him to use his own legs.

IMO, morale is affected by lots of factors - how loud your side is cheering, how imposing the paean was, whether you're being shot at by peltasts, whether your flanks are threatened, how high the enemy's horse-hair plumes are, who the generals are and how good they're reputed to be, whether the enemy are Spartans, when you last ate, how rapidly people are dying, etc.

The crucial factor in my view is what you think the man next to you is going to do. If he is going to break and run, then you ideally need to start running just before he does - you don't need to outrun the enemy, so long as you can outrun your friends. It's a Prisoner's Dilemma situation: if you all stay long enough you win because the enemy will break before your army does; but if you stay and he flees then you die. If you flee and he stays, you stand a better chance of living if your side loses; but on the other hand you may be reviled as a coward if your side wins, so you don't flee until you really think you need to.

Only the men at the back (and sides, but there are fewer of them) have the chance to flee. If they start to go, then the men in the next-to-last rank then get the same dilemma. However, they *know* that at least some of their comrades are scared enough to flee, so they can pretty safely conclude that others will: this is a good incentive to get out while the going's good, and thus a chain rout is triggered (snowball effect).

This is all hypothesis on my part; please feel free to pick holes in it, so long as you don;t mind me picking hole in your pick.

Cheers,

Pell.R.