The Onager and the Elephant: Psychological Warfare

[Desperado[1G]]

I have frequently seen games with the words "No Art No Ele" in the title. The fact is, these units are by no means the bastions of destruction people seem to think they are.

I know some of you are thinking "Any n00b can use an onager to shoot from far away." Well, the point I'm trying to make is, an Onager gets MAYBE 15-30 kills a game. Yes there are rare instances in which that firepot will land on a testudo formation or a large clump of cavalry, but that is luck, and luck is a part of warfare.

The simple fact is, the onager is more of a psychological weapon than a high powered long range killing machine. He forces your army to advance while he sits pretty and fires away at you, landing maybe 3-5 shots on the way. Anyone who gets Onagers for their killing power is a fool.

There are two ways of countering an onager user, you can get them yourself and knock out his onagers, or you can rush him, in which case you will be playing into his hand by;

A. Tiring out your army by running across an open battlefield to close the gap
B. Breaking formation and overall strength of your front line


Now, the dreaded elephant, a very deadly unit when used correctly, but also a very fragile one. Elephants are by no means the invincible beasts people make them out to be. I have killed an entire Armored Elephant division with 2 of my Royal Pikeman because of a poorly-placed charge. These animals are nothing but very resilient shock troops. They are by no means uncounterable.

Some of the elephants' weaknesses are fire, javelins, onager fire, and those pesky incendiary pigs . I have seen 3000 denarii go down the drain the second my enemy sends his elephants at my 6 dicisions of Companion Cavalry, or into my front line, just to be met by my 200 denarii pigs, thinking they were invincible. Also, people seem to forget that elephants are still classified under "Heavy Cavalry" and are still weak to a phalanx formation, even if they don't die immediately.

I suppose I created this little "article" to enlighten some of the players that these units are NOT the end-all-be-all units of the game. They have their counters, and they work very well if used properly. These units counters' take a little more effort, but are still very blatant.

And with that, I point to my sig.....

[Hashishin]

I agree mostly with you opinion about onangers and elephant.
I dont fear onangers i fear a bit elephants but then i use fire arrows and mostly get those eles under control.
I know that when you control your eles well they can be like real tanks but they have there high price so for me they are not overpowered.

Anyway i know that most games are called no art no ele cause

a) u use fire and will lag game
b) art will cause always a specific movement (breaking formation, doubling etc.)

Inmo i dont care what oponent uses but i feel games with art are a bit unconfortable even i feel also they mostly 15-30 kills for about 720 denari which is crappy.

[Wishazu]

I totally agree desperado. it bugs me no nd when people censor certain units, and as for lag caused by onager firepots, never come across it but fir arrows on the other hand yeah i can understand why peeps dont like em.

[Desperado[1G]]

Ah, I also forgot to mention. KNOW YOUR ARMIES STRENGTHS, AND KNOW YOUR ENEMIES WEAKNESSES.

If you are Egypt or a Greek empire, use your archers!! They are the strength of your army. Not to mention very effective against onager crews.

[Emperor[1G]]

Completely agree.

[ichi]

Welcome to the Org Desperado.

Since I am unable to host I must join other's games, and about the only thing I won't jump in is a castle (MTW).

The reasons for rules vary from weakness (people who can't handle artillery so they ban it) to style (people who don't like artillery so they ban it).

I have found that the more you experience a certain phenomenom the better able you are to handle it. We had these same conversations about pumped up Ashigaru in Shogun and in MTW about the Byz, and I think that these discussions are healthy, as long as we don't get personal.

Once I saw a guy do a really stupid thing. I turned to my father and said "It takes all kinds I guess"

To which he replied, "no son, it doesn't. We got all kinds, tho."

Nice thread for a first post.

ichi

[AggonyDuck]

To be honest I find artillery to be a pain...I just think that they're way too accurate and they're rate of fire is ridiculous...

Of course this doesn't mean that I can't handle them, but these onager shootouts that I've seen take place are a joke. That's why I tend to ban artillery in the games that I host...

Also because artillery tends to destroy my way of playing the game in more skirmishing and mobile approach.

[aw89]

Once I saw a guy do a really stupid thing. I turned to my father and said "It takes all kinds I guess"

To which he replied, "no son, it doesn't. We got all kinds, tho."

Your father is a vise man, I will gladly be led by him in battle

[ichi]

Your father is a vise man, I will gladly be led by him in battle

Once when drunk, he said the most profound thing

"Right's right, and wrong's wrong, and don't ever let anyone tell you the difference"

oh, and

"when you're 18, you're out of this house!"

aregato aw

ichi

[tootee]

Now, the dreaded elephant, a very deadly unit when used correctly, but also a very fragile one. Elephants are by no means the invincible beasts people make them out to be. I have killed an entire Armored Elephant division with 2 of my Royal Pikeman because of a poorly-placed charge. These animals are nothing but very resilient shock troops. They are by no means uncounterable.

Some of the elephants' weaknesses are fire, javelins, onager fire, and those pesky incendiary pigs . I have seen 3000 denarii go down the drain the second my enemy sends his elephants at my 6 dicisions of Companion Cavalry, or into my front line, just to be met by my 200 denarii pigs, thinking they were invincible. Also, people seem to forget that elephants are still classified under "Heavy Cavalry" and are still weak to a phalanx formation, even if they don't die immediately.

I suppose I created this little "article" to enlighten some of the players that these units are NOT the end-all-be-all units of the game. They have their counters, and they work very well if used properly. These units counters' take a little more effort, but are still very blatant.

And with that, I point to my sig.....

no comment about arty or elephants. just one.. why would anyone with some brain use elephants vs spear and pikemen?

Generally war elephants has attack 7 and defend 16 to 19, charge of 11, a size of 18 (riders) and 6 elephants of HP12. One unit of armoured elephants has total combat points of (7+19=26), sum HP of (90), morale 8, missile range of 120, ammo of 60 (typical archers 30, horse archer 40), costing 2780 denarii, cause fear to nearby enemy. Of the defend 19, 16 is armour against missile. If you just look plainly at its combat power vs non-spear, it has a 26x6x12 = 1872 man-equivalent total combat points, which is abt 1.49 denarii per combat point.

A roman praetorian cav has attack 12 and defend 22 (total combat point = 34), charge 9, 27 horses of HP1, morale 10, no missile, costing 840 denarii. Missile defend is 15. It has a 27x34=918 man-equivalent total combat points, which is abt 0.92 denarii per combat points. However considering the -12 combat point penalty fighting against elephants, its more like 1.41 denarii per combat point.

Due to the upgrade model of RTW, upgrading the experience level of a unit make it less denarii efficient. At E3, roman praetorian cav is CP=40 @ 1500 denarii, which is 1500/(27x40)=1.39 denarii per combat point, or 1500/(27x28)=1.98 denarii per combat point vs elephants.

Therefore you have an armoured elephant units that is equivalent to 2 missile units (and an armour/missile defend of 16 vs foot archer 0 to 7) who can virtually absorb all missiles thrown at it, better than a E3 roman praetorian cav in term of efficient usage of your money and effective fighting power, morale modifier adv. Downside is run-amok. At high denarii games, its more sensible to get a slot for elephant than an E3 cav.

Yes i agree indeed it give one great sense of satisfaction to beat an army complemented by 2 armoured elephants in a 20k game, esp when the opponent has the common sense of not rushing them into spear, and a coordinated attack instead of solo with bbq pigs.

But i will stick to a 10k game for now.