Archers and Slingers need tweaking

[zhuge]

Ranged units like archers appear to be much more potent in R:TW as compared to its predecessors. I've read that ranged shots do not take into account unit defence (only factoring in unit armor and unit shield (if shot from front/left)). Perhaps they should since archers appear to do a boatload of damage.

I was playing as the Greeks lately and had the chance to use both Cretan Archers and Rhodian Slingers.
First off, I feel the range of the Cretan Archers is just plain obscene (you can literally shoot units a mile off) and allows you to easily outrange any regular archers. The fact that they also seem to kill about 5 men per volley makes them really deadly.

As for Rhodian Slingers, they simply do tons of damage and their range isn't shoddy either. When I took a wall-less Ancyra (occupied by 3 enemy units of Naked Fanatics and 1 unit of Barbarian Cavalry, all units had 2 experience), my Rhodian Slingers basically did all the work (contributing 130 kills while my 2 Generals mopped up the rest). The town square AI needs to be tweaked so that units adjust their facing (to get a shield bonus) or to charge instead of just quietly being stoned to death.

Since the patch isn't out yet, here's a fervent request to get this tweaked. IIRC it wasn't so bad in M:TW and archers were handy but weren't really that effective in S:TW. Currently Cretan Archers and Rhodian Slingers tend to be a bit shafted due to the Stamina bug (they both have Good Stamina and as a result from the bug now tire more easily). Once this bug is fixed in the patch, they would be even more formidable.

Settings at VH/VH, with Cretan Archers and Rhodian Slingers having 2 and 1 experience respectively, normal unit size (40).

[RZST]

they do seem overpowered, maybe lessen the damage? but thats as far as i can go.
the slingers range is perfect since i well placed cavalry charge usually kills em.

also, the center of the town "feature" or bug is quite annoying. the enemy just sits there waiting for its doom.
i make up for this little feature by not using missile units in the town center, rather i just bumrush it o.o;

[Sin Qua Non]

Does anyone know how many arrows each unit carries, or if they differ from one archer type to the next? Archer Auxilia seem to be able to shoot through an entire battle (a short one anyway). I've never counted how many salvos they actually get off on average.

[Oaty]

IMO archers are'nt all that tough. When I face an archer heavy army I march up and as soon as I see the enemy knocking there arrows I run all units and they get 1-2 rounds off and then they start getting choped to pieces.

The problem with the A.I. is that they sometimes have too much of a defensive mode. I walk up and start shooting them. Now the A.I. is'nt programmed to figure out if they are going to get shot to death or not. So they just stand there.

What needs to be done, possibly prebattle is a calculation if they can sit back or if they need to charge home as soon as the missiles start coming in.

Hopefully this will be one of the A.I. improvements in the patch.

[Sin Qua Non]

If anyone wants to know, it looks like foot archers get 30 arrows each, horse archers 40, chariots either 40 or 60, and elephants get 60. I just shot through the description file, and everything looks pretty standard for all factions.

[zhuge]

Just checked the files myself and yes, it looks like foot archers have 30 shots. It's the same for better archers like Cretan Archers except that regular Archers have 120 for range and Cretan Archers have 170.

As for slingers, most foot slingers appear to have 40 shots. It's the same for better slingers like Rhodian and Balearic Slingers except that regular Slingers have 80 for range and both aforementioned better slingers have 120 (which puts them on equal footing as regular archers).

Hmm... I can't really remember how many shots regular archers got in M:TW, much less the number of shots available to Samurai Archers in S:TW. Been quite a while since I last played those games. I could be badly wrong but I don't seem to recall getting that many shots for Samurai Archers.
In any case, there was a formula on a website I recall that mentioned the effectiveness of Samurai Archers and their experience (honor) and it seemed to say that after getting the first couple of stars, their shooting accuracy/damage doesn't improve much at all.
Also shots made at long range don't seem to hurt enemy units much back in S:TW. So if you hadn't many shots to make, sometimes it was worth closing a little to get a more comfortable range rather than shooting at first opportunity. In R:TW, those Cretans can shoot from a mile off and still inflict about the same casualties and they weren't even on higher ground, which also incidentally appears to affect range less than in previous games.

I'm not sure why ranged units are more effective in R:TW. Maybe it's the fact that Archers get their General's Command rating added to their attack?? I believe it was just a morale bonus in previous games (please correct me if I wrong as my memory is really hazy on this one). Maybe it's the fact that they are getting more shots/more volleys per man as mentioned by other forum members. Or maybe it's the way ranged attacks deal damage and how they take into account armor, defense and penetration.

In any case, I believe there are quite a number of forum members who feel that ranged units are a dominant force in R:TW (perhaps too dominant), therefore it would be nice to have someone conduct a little research on it (hint, hint, followed by big grin)...
I know certain figures might change post patch but I think it's still worth the effort. Thanks.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

I think that in SP you can live with the apparently overpowered missile units - as long as you don't exploit it - so if you have a Roman army, only use 1 or two long-range missile units (like would be the case), and opt for velites or light auxilia instead.

My feeling was that archers had more ammo in RTW than in MTW/STW - but those figures sound about right - so may be it is just that they are far more effective - certainly in MP archers are a bit silly at the mo'. RTW had the potential to get away from the previous domination of unbalancing missile units - eg: muskets in STW, pavise arbs in MTW, but I don't think that's been achieved.

On the increase with general bonus - i should think that the attack bonus only applies to their melee capability, not their missile strength. In MTW/STW, general bonuses affected valour, so giving att/def and morale bonuses, which IMO was silly - why should having a good general make you a better killer? - morale bonus - fair enough, this follows, but bonuses to att/def don't.

[bhutavarna]

i do think that archers and slingers are overpowered, although they're not invulnerable. on my second campaign, i reduced the number men in archer units to 30 on normal setting. so that i get 60 per unit on large setting. i think this mod actually works well. the arrows are still deadly, but as a whole the archer units are not overpowered.

[lancer63]

Archer and slingers are ok in almost every aspect to me. I like to close up on the target unit whenever I can and most misiles will be deflected by armor and shields when present. I have even seen foot signifiers, the guy to the right of each unit acting as non-com/officer, take shots and keep standing, which I like to think of as 'injured but efective'. Most projectiles miss or are deflected for what I can apreciate.
I can even accept friendly fire while moving or in a melee situation. But what really needs tweaking imho is when a archer/slinger/skirmisher unit kills a friendly standing not two feet away!! It happens to me every time I'm not careful not to overlap unit formations. On one battle I lost 4 hastatii men that way. They were overlapin an archer formation and the 4 archers behind them shot them dead on the first volley and the enemy was at extreme range.
That's one of the many examples I've seen. Which is also a fine way to increase exp. chevrons on foot misile units. Just park a peasant unit directly between the enemy and your slingers and they'll be cut to ribbons as easily as if a gatlin gun had been behind them.
Unlike MTW I never position misile units behind others with the 'fire at will' button on. It's too dangerous.

[Red Harvest]

zhuge,

The reason general's bodyguards last so long is that they have both very good armour and 2 hit points each. So it takes awhile for "kills" to accumulate before they begin falling. You have to kill each man twice before he falls. So if you hit a random 10% per volley, you can see that it will be a few volleys before you have much probability of 2 hits on the same guy. Same thing happens with chariots and elephants vs. ranged units. That is why you don't see javelins or slingers or archers killing elephants after prolonged attack. Melee on the other hand tends to score multiple hits on a single character in rapid succession (because of localized killing, much of the unit might not even be engaged.)

[Alexandr III. Biges]

Maybee the only problem with archers is AI. What I remember, in MTW the unit taking arrow damage began to move, took lose formation, even try to move into a forest, but now... I understand Romans were tough guys, but just simply stand and accept bitting by a few archers?