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Thread: Research suggestions and discussion

  1. #1
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Boxteroid Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Research suggestions and discussion

    This thread is for members to:
    • suggest possible research topics
    • discuss research methods and tools
    • comment on the forum

    For example, if you would like to see a topic researched, but aren't quite sure about how to go about it yourself, this is place to suggest it for discussion.

    NB: This thread is not a replacement for the PM thread request system - please use that for all requests to open threads.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Recently the Admin bonus has been figured out:
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=40069

    I've completed fleshing out the 1st tier for tax income (converting them into 3 separate linear tiers: 1a, 1b, 1c). Tiers 2, 3 and 4 are as you have described (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37831).

    So AFAIK, we've gotten all aspects for Income covered (Taxes, Trade, Farms, Mines, Admin).
    As you've done most of the work for this, it is only fitting that you do the honors to provide a short summary of the individual aspects. I really like the format of Quietus's Quick Economics Guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38623) but it's not been completely fleshed out in several aspects. If we could merge it/update it, that would be nice, IMHO, and we would then have one good solid concise guide with everything in it for easy reference.

  3. #3
    Pelekyphoros Barbaros Member Rurik the Chieftain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    I would like to see what it takes to make elephants flee and/or go berserk, or any in depth study of morale in general. Then someone could figure out how to best go about scaring off ones enemies like children
    Last edited by Rurik the Chieftain; 12-12-2004 at 21:13. Reason: whoops! little spelling error

  4. #4
    Von Uber Member Butcher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    I was wandering if someone could do an investigation into this, as it recently has been fixed in the patch.
    Last night as the Britons i forced the Julii to be my Protectorate. They then brooke it next turn by breaking alliance with me. What I want to know is:
    1) what are the tangible benefits of a protectorate (apart from military access, trade rights and alliance)?
    2) Does the a.i always break it? And if so why have them?
    3) Do Romans NEVER keep to being a protectorate?
    4) Can you get all the roman factions as a protectorate?
    5) What are the conditions required for getting them to be a protectorate? I had reduced the Julii to 4 cities and was threatening to siege one more, and they agreed to it for a turn.

    I don't have the time to look into this, so maybe someone else could?
    - I'm sorry, but giving everyone an equal part when they're not clearly equal is what again, class?

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    Member Member Jay Tee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    I would be interested in how the AI makes decisions on the strategic map. Why does it attack when it does, how does it determine whether to exterminate/enslave/occupy a region, why does or doesn't it merge armies together etc. I think it would be very interesting to know this for (and how to change this) for modders out there.
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  6. #6
    Member Member sunsmountain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    I'm interested in a Rule of Thumb section within the Ludus Magna, where forum members with quick questions can find quick answers. An example could be:

    Public order (Title of thread)

    To maintain public order, you should (in order of being cost effective):
    1. Install a governor if you have a spare: you're paying for them anyway!
    2. Build temples.
    3. Build arenas/execution squares/odeons.
    4. Build health buildings and the level 5 market, though these only compensate the problems they generate themselves in terms of squalor, long term.
    5. Lower the tax rate. Aim for 85% at high rate, or 75% at low/normal (to avoid the traits efficient taxman & poor assessor).
    6. Use as much garrisons as you need if the population is below 16800.
    7. Use Games/Races above 16800, where you mix and match. Obviously if you need 25% you can throw Monthly Games and use some troops, you don't need Daily Games in that case.

    then others can comment etc. Starting new posts should be limited to the subjects as described in the Ludus Magna.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Interesting idea. Is the Ludus Manga forum the best place for such threads though? Although they are at least in part based on game mechanics research, they do no actually contain any research themselves. Unless I'm missing something?

    People based mainly on other boards (like me) come to this forum for the very high quality of concise, focussed and detailed info here. This sounds more like something that frogbeastegg should include in her guide.

  8. #8
    Member Member sunsmountain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Although both frogbeastegg and Quietus go to great lenghts to index their guides, there is always some specific info missing that you're looking for. You know, like when you need a quick answer.

    Now it has become clear to me that Ludus Magna is about scientific study into the game of Rome:TW, but not all gamers are familiar with chi-squared significance tests and such. For them, complicated formulaes like the ones therother usually finds, have to be translated to layman's terms. Similarly i wouldn't start teaching Quantum Mechanics to anyone who doesn't understand the necessary mathematics & physics yet.

    Even something as simple as:
    Y = 701X - 2.8

    (public order due to garrison), is already too complicated. Ideally, you want rules like:
    - 160 soldiers maintain 80% order for a population of 700, 40% for a population of 1400, and so on.

    People can then intuit the many formulaes in the game for themselves from that point on.
    I am also of the school of thought that CA programmers use exact formulaes to calculate values, not approximate ones. Therefore effort should be undertaken in trying to find these exact values (i know i am).
    Last edited by sunsmountain; 04-15-2005 at 17:50.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    sunsmountain,

    I've thought about including this in my guide. But my idea is more of a decision tree.

    Example:
    A) Is your population over x or y?
    Bx) Do you have a garrison? yes or no.
    Cn) Do you have foreign buildings? yes or no.
    etc., etc.

    It's complicated as you can see. It requires much research knowledge and faithful formatting. Perhaps, yours is the implementable and doable way. Simply list all the characteristics and possible solutions.

    When I do research, I try to factor the "icons" so it can be easily translated. A lot of the equations are fairly simple and just plug & chug varieties, but as I have said before, it would be better to relate the the functional meaning of the icons to one another.

    However, some values are doable without the icons itself. Eg. trade.
    You know which one give the highest values: port, trade rights, roads, trade buildings etc.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by sunsmountain
    Now it has become clear to me that Ludus Magna is about scientific study into the game of Rome:TW, but not all gamers are familiar with chi-squared significance tests and such. For them, complicated formulaes like the ones therother usually finds, have to be translated to layman's terms. Similarly i wouldn't start teaching Quantum Mechanics to anyone who doesn't understand the necessary mathematics & physics yet.

    Even something as simple as:
    Y = 701X - 2.8
    A linear equation is not nearly as complex as chi-squared significance tests. I learned how to use such equations when I was in a young teenager so I don't think it is that important. Besides this forum is for such work. I'm still confused about why you want to do this in the Ludus Manga. I don't want to see a dilution of the forum with such work, especially as other forums would seem more suited to this. Especially if Quietus is prepared to put such rules into his guide. Perhaps frogbeastegg could be persuaded to follow suit?

  11. #11
    Member Member sunsmountain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Ok well i think these 'rules of thumb' should best get a sticky in the RTW guides forum then. No opening an entire sub-forum, but hey you can always ask.

    As for icons, and translating it into IF THEN ELSE kind of rules, that's fine, they serve the same purpose: translating research into gameplay.

    Although a linear equation is not as difficult as a chi squared test, i'm not sure what to expect from all gamers. Some are quite young, and may understand computers and games, but may not have had math yet. We'll see.
    in montem soli non loquitur

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    A sticky in the Guides forum seems like a very good idea to me.

  13. #13
    Member Member CMcMahon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    I'd like to know why there's so much lag on the campaign map in v1.2; I get a lot of mouse lag, in addition to button presses and clicks occasionally not working. That never happened in v1.0.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Staff organisation

    Congrats Simon!

    Just a quick question though. Why does the PM limk now only bring up Simon's PM name and not therother and Jambo?

    Okay I lied, two questions. Why does this forum keep getting moderators who weren't previously very active in reserach? No offence to Simon Appleton, but he doesn't seem to have done much in the way of game mechanics resarch here (just checked in the search engine, nice to have it back!). Then again neither had A.Saturnas before he took over nad he turned out alright.
    Last edited by Morat; 07-02-2005 at 19:24. Reason: keeping getting therother's name worng!

  15. #15
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Boxteroid Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    (Moved Morat's post here from the Staff Organisation thread)

    Jambo and I aren't very active in the forum at the moment, which is why Simon is the only one in the link. New AM(s) will be appointed soon, and the threads will be updated.

    As for your second question, I'm not privy to the discussions of the staff, but previous posting in a forum is not that important IMHO when choosing a Moderator. Ability and attitude are far more so.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    what part does mass play, Iv just now started hearing talk about this, how some units have 1, 1.2, 1.5,

  17. #17
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Creeper525
    what part does mass play, Iv just now started hearing talk about this, how some units have 1, 1.2, 1.5,
    It determines which unit is pushed back in a melee. A tall, heavy barbarian will be less easy to push back than a Roman town watch, for example, and both will be shoved aside by cavalry. Units with lower mass will lose against high mass units all other things being equal.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    that was my guess thanks

    dont you think phalanx should have a heavy mass? realistically men wouldnt stay there and die by the dozens on top of one another like they do in Vinella atleast, they would be more likely to keep backing up, wich could possibly cause a route
    Last edited by Creeper525; 08-14-2005 at 15:12.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    ok, new questions, hope someone can answer

    can stats such as defence skill change according to formation, or stance, or wich weapon your unit switches to (spear - mace or pike - sword) ?

    can mass change according to formation or stance or weapon ?

    if so, can the degree of change be modded

    and does guard mode really increase defence and decrease attack ?
    Last edited by Creeper525; 08-19-2005 at 02:09.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Creeper525
    can stats such as defence skill change according to formation, or stance, or wich weapon your unit switches to (spear - mace or pike - sword) ?
    Yes, I believe so. I was much clearer on these things in MTW, as CA told us the quantitative effects but with RTW has now said the mechanics are commercial secrets. However, I suspect in these things have not changed qualitatively. Wedge raises attack, lowers defence. Guard mode does the opposite. The phalanx formation does something like raising defence (maybe attack to a lesser extent). Different weapons have different attack stats (and differ in whether they are armour piercing). Maybe another poster can give a more definitive answer, addressing your other queries.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Hello, I would like to know if anyone did some research on Phalanx VS Phalanx tactics and the advantages/penalties of a particular unit vs the other (including hoplites)
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  22. #22
    Friend of Lady Luck Member Mooks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Here's a topic.

    When does marius happen? I was jullii with over 10 imperial palaces and it was 210 and STILL didnt happen.
    Last edited by Mooks; 11-26-2005 at 06:14.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by holybandit
    When does marius happen? I was jullii with over 10 imperial palaces and it was 210 and STILL didnt happen.
    Well, I could think that the Marius event would be taking place in some 100 years BC, but I faintly recall it taking place for me during the cap of approx. 180BC to 160BC. It varies from what I can tell.

    i) I would like to see a research made concerning the effects of agents placed in both own and rival cities, if not already made.
    ii) Another matter that has caught some degrees of my interest is that of the characters' age they reach before ultimately dying due to natural causes, id est, not upon a sword. Is it all randomized or do certain traits have any effect? Squalor?

    "Life is a bitch and then you die."
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    I really wanted to know how do grain trade works.
    I managed to find out that a city with grain resource can trade with 2, 3 or 4 cities. That number seens to be related to the size of the city. But some cities just never trade with more than 2 or 3 cities, no matter how large they get.
    I also managed to found out that grain cities usually always trade with the same cities. For example, Carthago usually trade with Lylibaeum, Cirta, Thapsus and Lepcis Magna. But sometimes Chartago start trading with other cities, and I cant really tell why. I guess its related to the amount of money it got from the trade, but Im not sure.
    Theres a lot of things I still dont understand. Can someone do a research on it?
    Thank you, and sorry for my poor english.

  25. #25
    Member Member Avicenna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    What makes the AI besiege your settlement and then suddenly run off just when they're about to take it? No settlements of theirs are under siege and I don't have any army nearby to stop them..
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    Member Member Avicenna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Also, I really want to know what determines which family member in a certain stack becomes the general/governor and is there any way to change it without making them walk in and out again?

    The governor usually seems to be the newest family member who enters a settlement, but sometimes a good general enters and doesn't become the general of the certain stack, even though the other character there is the worst leader in the whole family, yet sometimes a useless swine of a leader walks in and I don't know how to change it to another general (without making the character leave as that extra heavy cav is great)
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  27. #27
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Tiberius, The LM is about the research of the game mechanics, so these questions are not really suited here, but I will try to answer them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberius
    Also, I really want to know what determines which family member in a certain stack becomes the general/governor and is there any way to change it without making them walk in and out again?
    The highest command family member will become general/garrison commander, and highest influence/management (not sure which) will become governor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberius
    What makes the AI besiege your settlement and then suddenly run off just when they're about to take it? No settlements of theirs are under siege and I don't have any army nearby to stop them..
    No idea. It sounds like the load-save bug except that it was fixed in 1.3
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    Member Member WarHawk1953's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Has anyone studied the effects of AI battlefiled formations on game play. I know that this has been mod extensively. Does these mods help improve the actions of the AI.
    WarHawk1953

  29. #29
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by WarHawk1953
    Has anyone studied the effects of AI battlefiled formations on game play. I know that this has been mod extensively. Does these mods help improve the actions of the AI.
    Darthvader has studied this extensively and I can vouch his Darth Formations improved the R:TW 1.2 battlefield A.I. considerably. I cannot vouch for his 1.5 edition though, as I haven't played it yet. There is also at least one other formation modder active on the TWC, but I haven't seen his work.
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  30. #30
    Honorary Argentinian Senior Member Gyroball Champion, Karts Champion Caius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research suggestions and discussion

    Just 2 things to suggest:

    One is the automanaged settlements.When you play with automanage everything, all the IA factions works of the same way?The types of IA changes the automanaged way of working?
    I dont know how to research this, any help would be appreciatted

    And the other is:

    Some troops come with a "combat bonus in...desert" for example.
    Whats the difference?The attack is improved?Or they die have more hit points?I want to know what gives this "combat bonus"

    Tell me if are something wrong or i am needing tell more.

    CF
    Last edited by Caius; 10-03-2006 at 23:43.




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