A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW

[therother]

If you have anything to add to the discussion of the trading system above, please do so in the Trade Research from Quietus' Quick Economics Guide (for comments specifically relating to the work above) or the Investigation of Trade Income (for anything else regarding trade), both of which are in the Ludus Magna.

Thanks.

[Fisherking]

The economics of the game are a mystery to me. I have not done the analyses that you people have but I can see that each building cuts income in some fashion. I have also seen that population actually cuts your income. The best thing to do with a large unruly city is to let it rebel & wipe it out. Then for a few turns at least you have a positive income from it as well as the tens of thousands that you may have looted. I have seen with the 1.2 patch that looting is less lucrative than in the original.

There are only a few cities that remain profitable with or without a governor. I am unsure of all that is going on with the build etc. but some of it would seem to be ridiculous. The building of blacksmiths, armories, stables, & what-not should not have a negative effect on the economy but none the less they do. Even walls… I understand maintenance fees but you start out paying a fortune for the larger building & they destroy your ability to continue. Not building is not much better as the population growth will also eat away profits. I am not an expert on ancient cities but it would seem that there was profit to be had in ruling, not assured bankruptcy. Something in the model needs to be changed. One thing I know for sure is that Egypt provided the Romans the cash for their great gifts to the Roman welfare state but in the game these three provinces are usually liabilities.

Spain was also wealthy but taking it in this game will be a burden over time in this game. There are no explanations of these things that I have found but if some one knows I would sure love to hear it.

[Red Harvest]

The Farming income is not % based. It has been a few weeks since I tested it, but In my testing in 1.2 I have found it to be income increments. The base farm level stats in the region file determines farm income. The descr_strat.txt file has the settlement tax level. These work together where farm income = region farm level * settlement tax level (in the strat file). Farm upgrades are in incrementes of one. So improving farms by one level is an increase of 51 denarii per turn.

EDIT: Also, 1 farm level = 0.5% population growth. This is why cities with high base farming values like Carthage and Patavium grow like weeds no matter what you do.

[Quietus]

I've already tested the farms back in October, I just wasn't posting them since I wanted to do more tests on the sea and land trades (which is the meat of it all ).

Anyway, here's the value I had then(tell me if they are correct):

D. Farming –

Farming Income –Farming income is based on farming levels, eg Land clearance, Communal farming, Crop rotation, Irrigation, Latifundia. It is also based on the Fertility of the soil (High, Medium, and Low) and Harvest (Poor to Excellent).

Upgrades depend on the harvests, which can vary from turn to turn:

• Poor Harvest = + 64-65 denari when upgraded.
• Average Harvest = + 68 denari when upgraded.
• Excellent Harvest = +73-74 denari when upgraded

Upgrading: (see above).
Level 0 (Base farming value) – Depends on Settlement and Harvests.
Level 1 ( Land clearance) – Depends on Harvests.
Level 2 ( Communal farming) – Depends on Harvests
Level 3 (Crop Rotation) – Depends on Harvests
Level 4 ( Irrigation) – Depends on Harvests
Level 5 (Latifundia) – Depends on Harvest

Only the base values differ in each province.

EDIT: Also, 1 farm level = 0.5% population growth. This is why cities with high base farming values like Carthage and Patavium grow like weeds no matter what you do.

The farm level bonus shows up in the parchment. Not all great growth is bad though. Every 0.5% growth after 5% growth adds a population boom public order bonus of 5%.

Edit:
Hi Fisherking,

Killing off population is not something you want to do. It is a misconception that adding a province lowers income. Adding a province ALWAYS increase the income total. Only the distribution of the cost is different (because it is based on population).

Think of it as a pie. The pie got bigger, but the distribution is different. While some of your provinces' income got smaller (yes?), check your other provinces. Their income just got bigger.

Read "Wages and Upkeep" up there, that explains it all by itself.

Population growth doesn't eat profits as you think. Upgrades are a function of Population and Income is a function of Upgrades (and population as well). Those building you need to erect are tiny in cost compared to what they add.

Always occupy. You only need to enslave as you move outward of your capital. But don't exterminate, that is a no-no. I'm taking in 150+ K denari net (minust the costs) per turn (50 provinces). In Athen, I'm taking 12+ k per turn ( and that with all those negative vices that CA bullheadedly add to actually punish the good players. Oh joy ).

2nd Edit:
Red,
Read your edit. Yes, we'll move the discussion to Ludus Magna. Just a quick one:

On Very Hard level, farm income is reduced by 15%.

80 denaris x 0.15 = 12 denari. 80 denari - 12 denari = 68 denari. Sounds about right.

[Red Harvest]

Quietus,

I'm still trying to decipher farming fully. I found an error with the way I was evaluating it before, but the values you give still don't match what I am seeing. There are discrete levels, but it wasn't 51 pts. per level.

First conclusion: Farming comes in 80 pt. increments on medium strategic difficulty with average harvest.

The wierd part is that some levels seem to not increment up? For example:
Level 2 = 160 (Siwa)
Level 3 = 160 (Asturica)
Level 4 = 240 (Damme)
Level 5 = 320 (five examples I've checked)
Level 6 = 320 (four examples I've checked)
Level 7 = 400 (Carthago Nova)
Level 8 = 480 (three examples I've checked)
Level 9 = 560 (two examples...but a third is 160 higher with land clearance)
Level 10 = 640 ??? Not tested
Level 11 = 720 ? Not directly tested (10 + 1 for land clearance Memphis)
Level 12 = 800 ? (Alexandria has land clearance, should = 13 but gets 800.)
Level 13 = 800 ? (Corduba)
Level 14 = 960 ? (Carthage, but should be 15 for land clearance)

Second conclusion: I also noticed that in some instances, first level farming shrines provide no farm bonus until the first level farm is built. This REALLY complicates things, although you can see it when you put one in the build queue, if you don't see a faded farming icon next to the regular income icons, then you won't get a benefit yet. The oddest part is building the farm first does give the one level upgrade, just not the shrine. And if you build the shrine the next turn you get the extra point it adds (+2 total).

Poor harvest = 95% of average harvest (limited testing)
Excellent harvest = 107.5% of average harvest (limited testing)

On Very Hard level, farm income is reduced by 15%.

EDIT: Quietus, therother has added this as a topic in Ludus Magna. I'll try not to encumber your thread here too much with my discussion, but I hope you will have a chance to post what you have discovered in the research thread. Thanks!

[Quietus]

Hi everyone,

If you are reading this, this is an older version of the Economics Guide. Go to here Quietus' Rome: Total War Guide for the latest version.

I will ask KukriMan to remove this Guide from this section at once.

Thx