Carthage AI

[Jace11]

I'm looking for advice. I'm trying to modify carthage to make them more aggressive. I have made a few modifications already such as naval unit recruitment time doubled, added extra units at the start of the campaign, added extra regions for them.

I have given them Carthago Novo albeit they do conquer that region in around 228 and found the city, they need territory and it harms one potential aggressor - Spain. I have also given Tripolitania (I have made a special map_carthage.tga if anyone is interested so these changes are displayed on faction selection screen).

I have upgraded Carthage with city barracks, moved their family member from Balieres to Spanish mainland.

All in all, I've tried a lot of things, but

They seem to turn the other cheek. I know this, cause I start a campaign as the britons and sit and watch the AI Carthage capitulate. They seem to start well. In turn 1 to 4 they attack Syracuse and Lepsis (before I gave them that region). But they burn themselves out. No aggressive action is ever seen on Spainish mainland. Once Hanno is dead and the Scipii have Syracuse, they make no attempt to regain it, no attempt to regain Caralis and then Lilybaeum falls, then Thrapsus. Meanwhile, the Numidians attack Carthage though do not take it. The Scipii attack either Carthage or Lepsis. What I do see is lone units patrolling around. Big stacks without a general, only a captain, or a general on his own or single units! They can be standing in the same region as a settlement under siege and they refuse to get involved.

I can only summise that this problem is due the dispersed nature of their starting territories. The AI is Aggressive at the start, then something goes wrong. I have also noticed Julii stockpiling armies on boats off coast of segesta for many many turns. Later they will spring into action if Gaul attacks one of their homeland regions.

I feel the AI is very delicate. The changes I have made may be responsible for this or not. Fog of war off, is invaluable in watching AI factions, and I am pretty sure Julii and Carthage appear least aggressive or have incured an error. The rest fight to the death.

I have tried changing the faction AI build routine in the campaign folder...

balanced smith seems just as unaggressive as fortified genghis!

Could it just be a product of their geograpical position?

Thoughts welcome...

[Jace11]

one thought that crossed my mind, is that with these dispersed territories their units are trying to move to areas they cannot reach. Obviously boats could be used.

I have more ideas to test. Restore original boat build times and observe the default campaign more, to see if it is dependant on my alterations or happens anyway...

[Red Harvest]

I think you are up against the some missing aspects of the AI here. We can do things to make the initial set ups better, but the AI has no idea what to do after that. Armies seem to get stranded as the result of their "mission" ending or becoming impossible. Armies in the same region don't link up, etc.

The Romans are helped by the Senate missions. The Senate actually drives the AI to do something useful with its armies. I'm not sure why the AI sometimes won't aggressively retake lost "property." In my modded Scipii mission the Carthaginians didn't show much interest in recapturing Thapsus once I took it. Their Numidian allies came after me quickly, but Carthage just sat there. I've not yet found an initial "script" for the Senate mission although they often have predictable sequences. They do get disordered, as when I get assigned what would normally be a Brutii mission to subdue Thermon while playing as Scipii.

Of course, in history, Carthage could be fairly passive about losing land...when compared to Rome.

The Julii seem to stall after taking Segesta and Sardinia in the unmodded campaign. I'm not sure why. I changed diplomacy at the start to have Gaul and Julii at war, and have Numidia/Spain/Carthage allied so that Carthage doesn't get tag teamed. I also took away all the Roman boats that started on the map.

[Kraxis]

What about giving them a rather strong navy. That way they won't have to fear the Romans too much early on, and they might use it to move armies around.

[Jace11]

Well after a little testing I have found something interesting. Again I am Briton as they are as far removed as possible, though just being a faction could affect "seeds" if they are used etc. All these events occur with the default campaign file.

The attack on Caralis seems hard coded to me, it always occurs, yet it is not always the second senate mission when a human is playing as Julii, often Patavium or Mediolanium.

The strength of the entire Carthage faction dictates the force sent on the boat (Admiral Oppius). If you strengthen Carthage, it sends a force of 5 - 7 units instead of usual 3. When Oppius returns there are less troops available for the next mission.

The next mission is usually to take a region is Spain and the settlement Osca, though I have seen an attack on mainland Greece too, at Corinth. The important thing is, if I strengthen Carthage, Oppius leaves many troops on Sardinia and returns for the next mission and there are no troops to pick up. He waits off Segesta and each turn more and more troops board, until the full 22 units is reached and then he just sits there. Julii attempt no more offensive action for as long as 50-60 years unless attacked by Gaul.

I believe a few start missions are hard coded for each faction... When Oppius returns he has to wait for an assigned number of troops that arn't available causing a lag and the Julii AI "hangs". Therefore, I am not sure naval build rate modifications are helping the AI.

Everytime I test a modded carthage, the Julii hang at segesta, but the default campaign seems to run fine each time. If Oppius does not attack, the Julii go to greece instead. The AI seems very dynamic! but very delicate to changes in troop strengths, and there seems to be evidence that each faction has one or two start missions hardcoded!!

So a warning to modders, be careful about modding the campaign file, it is very sensitive. Test it and see!

[Jace11]

Hey Red Harvest,

Can you tell me what happens at the start of your campaign between the Gauls and the Julii when you are not directly involved (not playing as either)? Do the Julii invade, or the Gauls, or do they not bother and is a ceasefire decreed soon after?

In my tests the default campaign did not have the segesta problem, are you running the naval build time/costs mod?

[Kraxis]

A strong Carthagenian navy doesn't directly force Oppius to take more troops on board, especially if it is only sitting around in Spain or Carthage, but it does prevent the Carthies from losing their african provinces to the romans too fast. If Rome can't cross to Africa (because now the stronger Carthie navy is around) then it can't conquer the provinces.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

The pathetic existence of Carthage in RTW is an injustice to Rome's primary rival. I sincerely hope this is adjusted considerably in the patch.

[Red Harvest]

Hey Red Harvest,

Can you tell me what happens at the start of your campaign between the Gauls and the Julii when you are not directly involved (not playing as either)? Do the Julii invade, or the Gauls, or do they not bother and is a ceasefire decreed soon after?

In my tests the default campaign did not have the segesta problem, are you running the naval build time/costs mod?

These were with the suggested strategic AI mods that Spino posted, plus 2 turn boat build and starting with no Roman boats.

I was running with fog of war still on as Scipii so I could only see what Julii could see as my allies. There was some fighting happening in Northern Italy and it looks like the Julii went after Patavium, but the Gauls seemed to have repulsed them. The Julii built 3 forts along the borders, LOL.

I suspect the AI uses some "relative strength" calculations from the faction summary in its routine. It *might* go passive when its enemy or perhaps all its enemies reach some ratio of superiority. Probably a different rule set vs. the human, since the AI decisions seem to hinge around human play.

Kraxis is probably right about the boats helping for awhile. It only works if the AI is actively hunting down/blocking the invaders though. Or if the invading AI is cowered into staying in port.

Rome is quite handicapped without boats at the start, because it also lacks ports at the start. That means 4 turns minimum before they can get a boat in the water (with my 2 turn boat build.)

I really hope CA gets some coherent naval rules together, and programs the AI accordingly to use its boats for offense and defense. We've had some good threads discussing ideas. I'm hoping for fewer boats, with more risk, decisive naval battles, and tougher to stage naval invasions and blockades.

[Spartiate]

I have been obsessed with making Carthage a strong AI nation since first buying this game and i have made some progress but basically i still need to pay attention to it during all my campaigns and nurture them along so that i can fight them in the later stages.

Carthage now start the game with 150,000 in cash.
All of their family members now have Command,Influence and Management of at least 5 upwards at the start of the game.
All Carthaginian cities now have top tier ports,bazaars and walls from the beginning of the game.
They have more and better starting troops in Sicily.
They can train SacredBandInfantry from the second tier barracks building onwards with need of only a basic temple of Milquart(spelling) rather than the Awesome Temple of Baal.This has been done for trade bonus reasons.
They can now train archers.
I have increase their starting navies.


Despite this they appear to still lose Caralis early on but do not lose Lilybaeum or Corduba anymore in the early game.They also now seize Lepcis_Magna before the Numidians do.They just are not aggressive enough and never seem to do much in the way of expansion.They seem happy to sit on Sicily and watch a now intimidated Scipii army take Syracuse from the Greeks but then and for the next 100 turns they just stare across the border at each other except for the occassional Scipii foray.

[Turbo]

The best thing you can do to strengthen the Carthage AI is to edit in starting alliances for Carthage with Numidia and Spain. Carthage gets blitzed by up to 6 different factions otherwise and the AI basically falls over and plays dead.

[Red Harvest]

Update on my mods...for Jace11. Julii have kicked the Gauls out of northern italy, but have not managed to break out yet. I had not looked up there in awhile so my assessment of them was a bit off...they got past the initial stall point rather suddenly it seems.

Carthage and Numidia took turns hammering at my outpost in Thapsus until they managed to take it. The Carthaginians had finally appeared out of the desert with a good size force (what they were doing down there is beyond me since it was all there ally Numidia's territory) while my reinforcements were on a suicide senate mission in Corinth--suicide because I didn't fill the stack half full of equites...instead I used historical legion distribution of troop types.)

I'm playing with historically balanced Roman armies and deploying in legion sized chunks...so that increases the challenge by quite a bit. (I'm playing VH campaign, but with H battles so that my infantry isn't completely powerless.) In a cav and archer oriented game it is quite a handicap to play with only 2 units of Roman cav per army (with perhaps a unit of local merc cav) and a couple of units of velites per army. I have to use samnite mercs and merc hoplites as triarii, since I can't build any yet. Veteran high valour hastati are my princeps (which I now have available, but can't transport.)