The Koreans are still angry over all the rape of they're women.
There are two ways to look at it, the Japanese are way overdue to apologize for there rascist and abusive policies to Korean women. And two, that the current Japanese people do not have the right to apologize for things that they didn't do, ie most of them are two young.
Personally I think the Japanese government should apologize to the Koreans, and teach there kids about WW2.
I don't think there should be any reperations BTW.
clothes make the man naked people have little or no impact on society
When I was young, my grandfather told me of the Armenian massacre. He described in detail how his entire family was killed by the Turks, and wanted me to promise to kill Turks when I got old enough.
I'm curious, perhaps someone could answer - how many Turks would I need to kill before my grandfather's family would be resurrected? And what sort of stories would the families of these Turks tell their grandchildren?
What a stupid idea. Why ought the "Japanese" apologize to the "Koreans"? Are nations multi-celled organisms? What have Japanese people these days done to the Korean people?
If anyone should apologize to the Korean people, it's Kim Jong Il - for starving half the country, while conspiring to make war on the rest of it. The last famine this little monster caused occured in 1998, but I don't see anyone asking HIM to apologize for anything...
Let alone stand for one decent and honest election. To say nothing of his goon squads. Curious that no one seems to notice him, yet the "comfort women" are front page news.
I'm wondering how much this recent "nostalgia" has to do with North Korean/Chinese activism, and how much it has to do with the recent economic slowdown in the Far East...
Actually they did formally apoligise in 1998. You can read about it here.
Modern civilization is a vast conspiracy against silence
Thanks for the article Kurando.I believe the Japanese nation still needs to address their actions during that era by teaching their children about it in school.From what I've heard none of the atrocities committed are taught to Japanese school children.Like the old saying,"Those that don't learn from their mistakes are destined to repeat them."
There was an interesting program on the History Channel the other night on this subject called Emperor Hirohito's War.There seems to be evidence that Hirohito knew about,and condoned,many of the atrocities that occured,contrary to what the world was lead to believe during the trials after the Japanese surrender.The US,and the allies,felt they needed Hirohito to stay as Emperor in order to control the Japanese people during the occupation of Japan after WW2,so evidence of his knowledge about what happened was suppressed.General Tojo,and a few others,were made the scapegoats to all the atrocities committed.Only Tojo and one or two other generals were executed for war crimes.Most of the others received jail sentences under 10 years duration.It would be interesting to hear from any of our Dojo members educated in Japan on this subject.
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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
[This message has been edited by Hosakawa Tito (edited 09-04-2001).]
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*
Oda,
Who said anything about revenge??
I just mean why is it that they don't teach about Japans atrocities in the schools. We americans hear all about slavery, just like Germans hear about the holocaust, why can't Japanese school children learn about the KOrean comfort women?
clothes make the man naked people have little or no impact on society
I think there's the need to separate the apology issue from the textbooks or history issues.
Japan - or should I say Japanese politicians - have apologized numerous times over Japanese actions during the war. In Japanese they were able to use words and phrases which sounded stronger and more direct in translation to Korean, English and Chinese but which were actually much weaker and tepid in Japanese. Japanese is such a "nuanced" language that the only equivalent we have in English is "women-speak"- ie where women can slice each other to pieces without a man noticing.
However, after 56 years I think that's about as good as you're going to get apology-wise.
As for the history and textbooks though, "gaiatsu" is warranted in these cases - if only for Japanese tourists to understand why people spit at them in Beijing.
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The Buddha is a gyoza. If you find the Buddha, eat him.
Ceterum Censeo delendus est Bin Ladin.
Well,
I am a second generation korean. My parents had experienced the pleasures of japanese rule first hand, and have told me many many stories of how brutal and nasty they were. My grandparents went through a lot of pain due to it. Although most of the younger people, haven't forgotten, but they have more or less forgiven the japanese or try to overlook it. The older community on the other hand, still holds much contempt and anger towards them. My parents even refuse to buy most japanese products... Anyways I know they have done many things to our ancestors and more, but they too are a new generation of people by now. I don't feel it would be right to judge them by their ancestors actions as well. But it always does make me sad to ponder upon some of the stories of some of the grotesque things they did to our people.
BTW: Oda you have mixed a bunch of topics that are totally non-related with each other in your attempt to argue. Besides, North Korea, and South Korea are entirely different countries. You shouldn't attack countries without knowing what your talking about. Funny how the Far East becomes one economy.
and also BTW everyone did notice of Kim Il Jung and it did make the front page of most major newpapers at that time.
Well, my take on it is that the rest of the world has their panties in way too tight a bunch over all this. From what I've observed there are certain very numerous elements in this world that want nothing less than to totally emasculate the Japanese people for all time. My perception is that the Japanese are going to have none of this, which explains many of their tentatively defiant stances so far, and will be the cause of a major revolution in the not-so-distant future. After all, GERMANY got to be an autonomous military power again, and not be spit on by the rest of the world. Japan is headed in the same direction, though due to the self-important attitudes of far too many of their self-proclaimed "victims", they are likely to miss out for a LONG time on the not getting spit on part, at least in many parts of the world.
I predict that Japan is going to get their own high tech military and pretty much tell the moralizing manipulators that have been after them for so long to bugger off, all within the next 50 years. Only then can it start to deal with its past and return to normal.
DISCLAIMER-- this is not intended to downplay the many horrible things they did, or to belittle their ACTUAL victims, i.e. those who were directly victimized not just the descendants who claim some right to all of it. But one can look at it from a different side and all of the innocent Japanese women and children we mercilessly slaughtered with our doomsday bombing raids, even BEFORE Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And one could say the the Japanese were the ultimate and most punished victims of their own cruel policies, as it made it impossible for them to hold on to conquered territories and ultimately cost them the war and many millions of lives.
Not that WE should start apologizing for OUR genocidal bombing policies either. I think its just time for people to acquire some cahones and wake up and smell the fact that it was a brutal war and all sides committed horrible atrocities. It was a war in which stakes were very high and therefore rules of war could not be followed. Admittedly the Nazis, Soviets, and Japanese deviated much much farther from "the rules" than was necessary to facilitate their victory (and in the case of the Nazis and Japanese and *almost* the Soviets they largely brought about their own defeat through these policies), and they should be held accountable in history for that. But we all did horrible things, things which according to most modern moralists are inexcusable.
Sure we beat the Japanese, but we can't hold them down. I don't think they'd have the slightest problem with being more forthcoming if they'd simply get the base level of respect from other nations, and be allowed to go about it with some shred of dignity, which is of course the whole issue I believe. Koreans and Chinese etc. want to make Japan squirm like a worm forever more, which is really the pinnacle of self-absorption.
Oda: Based on what you've said here and elsewhere, I will only submit that if you would perhaps take a step back you would realize that you don't even PRETEND any level of objectivity in political discussions, and are therefore totally and irreconcilably disqualified from debate on such subjects.
Matt
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I can't address this point to non-Americans, so it only applies to Americans. Perhaps you should concern yourselves less with what Japan should apologize over and focus more on the ongoing omission of huge gaps of American history in our textbooks (actually this applies to Canadians too) of the treatment and involvement of native peoples, and the fact that an apology for atrocities against native peoples is still "being considered" by both governments.
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Koga no Goshi
"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.
Koga no Goshi
I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.
jskirwin: Do people actually spit at Japanese tourists in Beijing, or elsewhere in China?
Khan7: Isn't it a bit exaggerated to say that the Japanese are still being "held down"? When you have an economy as strong as the Japanese, no one can hold you down unless you let them... Maybe I'm wrong here, but do the Japanese even give a flying f*** what the Chinese or Koreans say these days?
When it comes to the military, the Japanese should be glad that their taxes haven't been wasted on weapons. It would be a tragedy if Japan follows in the US' footsteps and becomes obsessed with military "protection".
Yeah,
I agree koga, the things happened here on this land were sad. Native Americans have been subjigated to torture and the loss of their homes. Although this is not the only country in which this happened, it had happened all over the world. But the saddest part is that, the subject has never gotten the recognition it deserves, and a proper apology never given.
Koga I have to disagree with you on the omission of the atroscities committed against native americans in our school textbooks, and on some of the excellent tv channels such as the history channel.My wife is a school teacher so I know this to be true,at least in our local school.We also live right next to the Seneca Indian reservations in western New York,and have many Seneca's go to our local school,so maybe that is why.We have Seneca cultural programs offered at the highschool also.I can only speak for our area of course,I don't know what other areas of the US teach about this regrettable part of our past.If it is not being taught in your area schools,I suggest you contact your school board and ask why.Knowing the truth,good or bad,must be exposed if our future generations are to learn not to repeat these mistakes.That's why it is important for the Japanese government,or any other, to ensure that their schools teach these things.If it is important to your community,as it is to ours,then hold your local school board responsible.Demand that they teach the truth.
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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*
Kahn7:
'this is not intended to downplay the many horrible things they did, or to belittle their ACTUAL victims, i.e. those who were directly victimized not just the descendants who claim some right to all of it...'
Khan, this didn't happen 150 years ago - it happened 60 years ago. Many ACTUAL victims are very much alive.
'Koreans and Chinese etc. want to make Japan squirm like a worm forever more, which is really the pinnacle of self-absorption.'
If being bitter over an occuption that cost millions of lives in China (to say nothing of the treatment of occupied Korea) is 'self-absorption'... We Americans ought to just count ourselves lucky that we are not IN a position to decide whether or not to forgive the sorts of things the Chinese and Koreans went through. That very fact may as well disqualify both of us from discussing the matter.
I have a great deal of respect for Japan - I wouldn't have spent so much time on its history if I didn't - but I also have a great deal of sympathy for the Chinese and Koreans.
FwS;
Can you talk a bit about the cultural differences between the connotations of apologizing in our society as opposed to the connotations of apologizing in Japanese society?
I remember vividly when Japan offered that formal apology in 1998 that there was much said about how the Japanese view and conceptually interpret the concept of apology in a completely different manner than most westerners do.
I know that this is a complex question, but please give it a try; I've always been interested in what Japan actually intended to convey/represent with it's apology, and what forces in the Japanese psyche motivated it.
Modern civilization is a vast conspiracy against silence
I think it would be a smart thing for the Japanese to come up with a formal appology towards Korea and China and even more importantly to reevaluate their history text books.
In Germany this has been done: I would reckon that a great majority of Germans today consider the attrocities by the Nazis to be a terrible crime and a historical burden, they have to face. Great emphasis is put on not forgetting this past and what led to these sad events. There are several memorials showing the events leading to the Third Reich and frequent TV programs on the matter. IMO this is an important factor for Germany being accepted as a leading partner in the EU. The relationship between Germany and France as well as Russia are sound.
On the other hand my personal experience in Japan was quite different: there seems to be not much more concern about WW2 beyond the point that the Japanese lost this war and have now vowed never to engage in warfare again. In fact one elder Japanese person, thinking that I was German, once pointed out to me that it was a shame, that the Germans messed things up at Stalingrad as otherwise together we would have turned this thing around. Of course, not too much weight should be given to single events, however, I did not meet anyone in Japan, who felt any kind of remorse for the events of WW2 and the attrocities committed by the Japanese then.
Devil
Members of a tour group one of my students was with in Beijing had some trouble with the locals, including being spit upon and called names. She was floored because she hadn't expected such animosity from the Chinese. Having known the complete history of the Japanese occupation of China, she might have had a better understanding of such things. Having known about America's support of the military regime in Korea until 1988 helped me understand similar trouble I've had in that country.
I'm not keen on apologies or reparations for that matter. However I am all for full, complete and honest disclosure of the past. The Ministry of Education is playing games with the textbooks; everybody knows it, and it's just another example of how the ministries in Japan remain the true obstacle to reform of any type there. The truth should come out and be read by everyone. Just because the Rape of Nanking is shown in its complete brutality should not make a Japanese hate their nation in the same way that the My Lai massacre does not make me hate the USA. Such evil actions serve to temper one's patriotism, not destroy it.
As for the truth of the genocide of the Indians... In the 1970s we were reading about the "Trail of Tears", and in high school in the 1980s we read about the Ghost Dance massacres of the 1880s against the Lakota. That's the way it was in Catholic school in St.Louis.
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The Buddha is a gyoza. If you find the Buddha, eat him.
Ceterum Censeo delendus est Bin Ladin.
Hosakawa: That's good that there is such recognition in your area for the crimes committed against the natives of this land. Out here in the west coast, there doesn't seem to be much sympathy. It is rare to see any natives, because they have either been shipped off to the reservations, or completely wiped out. I've only met one native before, and that was in a Gambling Casino on a reservation, in which you rarely see natives as well. As for school programs, I'm not sure what they teach now. But when I was in high school, about 5-8 years ago, the only thing we really learn about the annexation of the natives, is the trail of tears. Other than that, not much lite was shed on the subject. Sad...
Kurando: Perhaps you could explain to me about the Japanese views on apology. I remember hearing about the formal apology and asking my parents about it, in which they just laughed.
Khan7: I don't think you fully understand what happened here. It seems as if you have been sheltered and know only what the government wants you to know, probably thanks to public schooling. But you are missing the point in why the Japanese were stripped of all military power in the first place. I'm not saying the Americans were ever righteous in bombing them or putting japanese in their own camps.
Quote It was a war in which stakes were very high and therefore rules of war could not be followed. [/QUOTE] This statement can prove it all. Japanese invasion of korea happened way before the war, and the Koreans and parts of china were under their horrid rule for many many years before WW2 even started. Korea was not a militant country and never really was. If you knew of the way they came in under the flag of peace, plotted, and then assasinated our royal family, youd have different views as well. Plus How can you say Germans wiping out the Jewish population is gonna help the war at all??? Its just Hitler's psychotic plan of having an aryan nation. These people knew what they were doing, and if you can't tell, it had nothing to do to help the outcome of the war.
This is still a touchy subject for most Koreans and Chinese mainly, because yes it wasnt 100s of years ago, and we still have living witnesses of these acts. Hell, I have heard of so many stories first hand, that even my views toward that Japanese are probably tarnished. But I still believe that they shouldn't be held responsible for what their ancestors did. I know this subject will never get the attention it deserves and probably 75% of the world population doesn't even know or care about anything that happened there, other than they were occupied during the war. But sometimes I think it would be better this way, and hope it will be more easily forgotten.
I'm not sure I'm qualified to give any sort of an informed opinion on that score, K (not being Japanese). I can only hazard a general estimation, based on my own experience with Japan and the Japanese.
The Japanese apology is indeed a little different from our own (as everyone heard during the fishing boat/submarine affair). An apology has to be deeply sincere. Face is usually assumed to play a role in this, but we superimpose our own ideas of 'face' in the equation. A true apology is, for lack of a better word, a show of manliness: you have the courage to admit you've done wrong, and feel a genuine sorrow over what has occured. In other words, you're man (or woman) enough to admit when you've done wrong, and human enough to feel real sadness over the event. This, I think, trips up some Americans when they apologize. We're very concerned about face (so many seem to think of 'face' as an Asian affair, IE, China has to save face, the Japanese have to safe face - when 'face' is a universal condition). Many of us think that too deep an apology is a show of weakness. How many times does one hear 'I'm really sorry about what happened, but you have to understand...'. My impression was that the Japanese were a bit put off by the US stance on the sinking of the boat in this respect - that we wished it hadn't occured, but didn't actually feel as if we had done something 'wrong', that it was an accident, and S**t happens... The vague and self-protective Firestone apologies are a good case in point: they don't want to ADMIT they were in the wrong, but they do WISH the deaths hadn't occured, etc...
Of course, the Japanese are not immune to this; the Korean apology was a notable one. Some of the others were quite a bit like the sort of apology that the Japanese didn't want to hear from us this spring - 'well, yes, we did screw up. Sorry about that...'
I guess I'm no longer making any sense, so I'll give up now...
Let me put it this way, if the japanese were white, you would have Jessie Jackson and the NAACP chaining themselves to the doors of the Japanese embassy.
The fact is the Japanese do not teach about atrocities in there text books. MY text books in highschool(I'm american btw) talked extensively about, Slavery and the INdian persecutions.
clothes make the man naked people have little or no impact on society
Thanks FwS, I think you were in a better position to answer that because you aren't Japanese. I was interested in a comparison of the two ways of thinking more than anything, and you are definitely qualified to provide that.
Modern civilization is a vast conspiracy against silence
DarthGuru-- Evidently you only skimmed my post. Without going back and checking specifically, I can guarantee you that I stated clearly and unequivocally AT LEAST twice that the cruel policies of the Germans, Soviets, and Japanese COST them the war. For instance, the Japanese cruelties made it essentially impossible for them to control any of the territories they had conquered. If they had had some SCRUPLES, been less overpoweringly FORCEFUL, and been BENEVOLENT conquerors with a health respect for international politics, the Japanese empire might still be around in some form even today.
Instead they screwed up BAD. Pardon me if I failed to clearly mention this, as the main purpose of my previous post was to give what I perceive to be the Japanese perspective on all this. They are a sovereign nation with a rapidly dwindling number of war veterans, and they feel that no FOREIGN POWERS should have the right to dictate how they deal with their past. I would have to sympathize with them GREATLY on this point, especially as, if you have noticed, pressures like this have a frightening tendency to snowball if you cave in too easy.
Not that they should not MOST DEFINITELY teach about Japanese history, but it is their own gd business when and how they want to go about it (I believe this to be the core of the issue, at least for the Japs).
Now to return to the thing with the American Indians-- do you think there was ANY teaching about US atrocities 60 years after the fact? If you think so, you are smoking something weird man. It only became a real issue in the 70s with the Wounded Knee standoff (though you can correct me if I'm wrong on the particular dating here). I myself have something like 1/8 Cherokee blood in me, and this summer I was up visiting my older brother (much older), who has joined the Abenaki tribe in Vermont and married an Abenaki woman. While up at his place (in a very beautiful, still quite wild area of Vermont), we did a bit of hiking around, and I was told about how back when the area was first being settled, the Indians had used a trail somewhere near where we were to travel from around where we were down to the lake a few miles away to fish. One day the settlers lay in ambush for them and wiped out every last one of them, man woman and child, on the return trip.
In the celebratory Centennial booklet, published somewhere in the teens I believe, they displayed with great pride and celebration that date, when they had gotten rid of them no good injuns.
But I really must note that I have never noticed a real neglect of education in this subject nowadays. I was, in the private school I attended through 8th grade, very well educated in the horrid atrocities that were committed. I noticed no change in the frequency or serious treatment of the subject in public high school either, it was a subject to which was devoted a relatively large amount of time. I, like Hosokawa, am perhaps better qualified to comment on the CURRENT state of education in this area (just this year I will finish high school).
Again, Darthguru-- I won't hold any grudges about your calling me sheltered and ignorant, but I will only submit that it would seem that one who barely skims over things he makes serious statements about should perhaps not be talking :-)
Matt
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FwSeal: Yes I think I understand now that the Japanese or Easterns in general have a deeper meaning in their apology. But it can still be taken many ways. And also I think apologies are used differently in politics then in any normal situation and in any country. You explained yourself about the sinking boat incident, how they didn't believe it was their fault but they are sorry for the people that died. Or the people should have never died in the first place. Well I'm skewing from the point as well, but I do believe that the Japanese apology to Korea and China was a sincere one. Yet most of the elders will never forgive them, I believe that most the younger generations either forgave or doesn't care about what had happened.
Khan7: wow, touchy arent we... For saying that, you should not be skimming over my posts as well. Because in your main arguement, of me not fully reading your post, I already said didn't mattered!!!! Pretty much my whole post is explaining why it didnt matter!!! And if you look closely I wasn't even referring to your entire post. I read over your post well, and did agree with you on some points, but I thought you were wrong on some or most. If you actually read my post you would have noticed that I only brought up one of the topics to argue. I don't understand why people get so defensive around here... Anyways I never called you ignorant, but sheltered, there is a great big difference. Which is true because you are making statements for the japanese, but how would you ever know what they are thinking? Just by reading a couple of your arguements it was made even more clear, because they had done just the opposite. Anyways, isn't it funny how you think someone is doing something, but you realize your the one whose doing it (or in this case not doing it) You need to read over my past post again, because showing in your follow up post, you had no idea what I was talking about.
PS why would I care if you hold a grudge on me? I dont know you. I was just making my opinion, if you disagree so be it, and besides grudges are for girls.
>>>>
"Admittedly the Nazis, Soviets, and Japanese deviated much much farther from "the rules" than was necessary to facilitate their victory (and in the case of the Nazis and Japanese and *almost* the Soviets they largely brought about their own defeat through these policies), and they should be held accountable in history for that. But we all did horrible things, things which according to most modern moralists are inexcusable."
>>>>
"Plus How can you say Germans wiping out the Jewish population is gonna help the war at all??? Its just Hitler's psychotic plan of having an aryan nation. These people knew what they were doing, and if you can't tell, it had nothing to do to help the outcome of the war."
>>>>
Okay, if you actaully read my post and agreed with some of my points, then how come you're here lecturing me with a point I already agree with? The proof is in those quotes.
Also, calling people sheltered without really having either the wisdom or the even the specific knowledge of the situation to discern such a thing, or even WITH those things, and using it as an argument in your favor, is bad taste. I could easily, based on your general tone and attitude and certain things you've said discern that you are almost definitely a young 'un, but I won't try to use that to discredit what you say, nor will I make a point of it except in this example.
Anyway, 'nuf said about that I think.
Matt
P.S.: I am giving, and I quote "..what I PERCIEVE to be the Japanese perspective..". Did I ever say I really knew or was particularly qualified to comment in this particular area? I just watch a great deal of news and read a helluva lot of history, so I get a sense of these things that is sometimes dead wrong but is often somewhat uncanny. Again, you are free to disagree, but I think I think I make a pretty good point.
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I never said you didn't make a good point. Otherwise I wouldn't even bother to argue it. I think youve read my post again, yes? But it seems you still don't understand my whole point. You say we are agreeing on the very point im trying to argue against. Here I'll put it out easier for you...
this is what you said
Quote I can guarantee you that I stated clearly and unequivocally AT LEAST twice that the cruel policies of the Germans, Soviets, and Japanese COST them the war. [/QUOTE]
now this is what is said
Quote These people knew what they were doing, and if you can't tell, it had nothing to do to help the outcome of the war. [/QUOTE]
does this look like we agree? The only thing we agreed on in those two quotes you put, is that the Germans and Japanese did horrible things. As for the sheltered thing, I apologize, I just didn't think you'd be so touchy about it (I didn't know it was such a harsh word, but I guess it is). I was just percieving your persepective, as you were percieving the Japanese perspective. But mainly I know I shouldn't have called you sheltered and I apologize for saying it.
Quote Did I ever say I really knew or was particularly qualified to comment in this particular area? [/QUOTE]
then how can you argue a point for them so strongly?? This is a more than touchy subject for my race, but you are just blabbing this and that for the Japanese, half are which are totally off, and then you come out saying this statement?? You contradict yourself many times. This quote can describe it better than pointing out every instance:
Quote based on your general tone and attitude and certain things you've said discern that you are almost definitely a young 'un, but I won't try to use that to discredit what you say, nor will I make a point of it except in this example.[/QUOTE]
LoL you just did! anyways I'm not a young 'un as you might percieve, I just have a strong opinion, and will not stand down easily, if I think I'm right. Don't worry because I don't hold grudges, but you really should read more carefully. Especially if your gonna accuse someone else of reading carefully.
Quote Originally posted by Demon_Ninja:
The fact is the Japanese do not teach about atrocities in there text books. MY text books in highschool(I'm american btw) talked extensively about, Slavery and the INdian persecutions.[/QUOTE]
Demon, if that's true then maybe times have changed very recently, because I was in high school only four years ago and this was not the case. There was one chapter in a 65-chapter book about slavery and only "oh by the way" side notes about skirmishes or battles with Native Americans, or major treaties signed. Native Americans tended to be mentioned only insofar as how much they were helping or hindering white issues such as the French and Indian War.
As far as "extensively mentioned"... I think most high school students in America would say slavery and wrongs against Native Americans are "extensively mentioned" in their history classes regardless of the accuracy of their textbooks... I think in many cases "extensively mentioned" can be interpreted as "we're reminded of things we don't like to hear more often than we'd like." That isn't to say entire history books should be about the wrongs of the U.S. military. But it is to say that even so much as 1/2 of one class period a semester being devoted to talking about America's treatment of Native Americans could be called "extensive mentioning" by some.
However, I've met disconcertingly few high school students who, even while in an American History class with the information fresh in their mind, could tell me about the Sand Creek Massacre, could tell me any detailed information whatsoever about how the United States acquired the state of Hawaii, or could tell me the story of Wounded Knee. All three of these events were major major historical events marginalized or left completely out of American history texts.
To Hosokawa... again, I haven't seen textbooks in your area, but only after taking devoted Native American History courses and a Hawaiian History course in college did I see how HUGE the disparity is between how much happened and how much most Americans THINK happened because of what information they receive from white histories and TV documentaries. In other words, until you see how much is left out, you have no way of knowing how much is left out.
------------------
Koga no Goshi
"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.
Koga no Goshi
I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.
It amazes me that every year the issue of textbooks here in Japan surfaces without fail. Why should the Japanese mention at all what happened ?
What difference would it make to the young students in Japanese High Schools of today to learn of their WW2 history?
Probably very little I would guess. They are so removed and different than the teenagers of 50 years ago.
Koga in my area of western New York,the Native Americans of the Iroquois Confederacy
has been embroiled in land dispute cases,and tax cases with the State of New York for many years now.The Senecas are just one of 6 tribes that make up this confederacy.If I remember correctly the Iroquois never lost,militarily speaking anyway,to the European peoples that took their land.They were too smart to try and fight,knowing they weren't going to win.In fact they "sold" land in the Ohio valley area to whites that they had no control over,politically they were and are very intelligent people.Currently, New York State is in court over "shady" land deals they pulled on the Iroquois,some court cases the State has already lost.The State has also been trying to make the Nation collect taxes on gasoline and cigarette sales to non-Indians at their stores.So far the State has been stymied in their assault on the Nation's sovereignity.The Iroquois are making millions in sales of these items,have put most of the non-indian owners of these type businesses out of business.Of course the State would love to get their grasping hands on this tax revenue.
It's ironic that 30 years ago when the only business the Indians had were trinket shops that barely made any money at all,the State wasn't worried about collecting taxes from sales to non-indians then,but now they want to because of the amount of money involved.
Personally,I say leave them alone,honor the treaties that were signed.
Any way the point I'm trying to make is that compared to how Japan has been "forgetting"to inform their people about the unsavory events of WW2,the US has been more forthcoming of some of our "dirty laundry",at least recently.Could we do much better?Without a doubt we could and should.That's where concerned people,such as yourself,come in.You've taken it upon yourself to dig deeper into these issues and educate yourself about what went on.Are there political groups that want to suppress these issues?You better believe it,but changes in education are coming,slow but sure.People must get involved at the local level to bring these changes about.
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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*
First to DarthGuru: I owe a bit of an apology on a couple spots. First of all, when you said "..had nothing to do to help the outcome of the war..", it looked as if you meant "..didn't help the Nazis and Japs win the war..", not what u evidently meant: "..had no effect on the outcome of the war..". I am guessing your english is not perfect, which is totally fine by me, it's just that's why we had that misunderstanding.
I also must admit that now I understand your strong reaction to what I said. Your family personally had experiences with this, so it is a touchy subject. If I had said anything that was actually BAD, I can be assured you probably would have strangled me with your bare hands :-) I understand your perspective.
I can only say that though I deeply respect where you are coming from, that I probably have a more *objective* view of this, as I am primarily an American Patriot, which means that if anything I should be ANTI-Japanese, and talking about dirty Tojos etc etc. (which btw I don't). It's just that I have studied this situation and many other situations, and I *think* that I have a decent handle on what's going on. I understand how you would be reflexively offended by some of the stuff I say, but it would be *constructive* if you would factually and logically attack my statements.
Anyway, no hard feelings, always good to have differing viewpoints :-P
Matt
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Whoa,
Khan is impressing me lately.
G'job man, nicely written I think.
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Koga no Goshi
"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.
Koga no Goshi
I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.
Alright Koga, let me ask you a question-- Just how knowledgeable do you think the average american highschooler is? Is the correct answer:
(a) fairly competent and knowledgeable
(b) barely competent and knowledgeable
(c) "*duuuuhhhhh* whu da heck is jeowg wushintun"
And the correct answer is.. *ding ding ding ding ding* **C**!!!!
So basically the fact that few highschoolers you've talked to that were taking Mod. Am. Hist.-- which btw is usu. freshman year, which makes matters even WORSE-- knew about any of that stuff is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT! They could've been lectured for 2 hours on it the same day and they wouldn't care enough to remember any of it! (ok ok I'm exagerrating a bit here, but I'm serious! highschoolers are ignorant morons!).
Anyway, MY Mod. Am. Hist. course started off right after the Civil War, but I came in 6 weeks late so I don't know how the Indians were dealt with. I can say honestly that knowing the teacher personally he is an amazingly knowledgeable man and a man of conscience, so I can't imagine such things not being covered. But by the time I got there, we were already up to the turn of the century (i.e. all the major indian events were essentially finished), so I can't testify really (and no big loss to me I was EXTENSIVELY both educated both by my teachers and on my own throughout private elementary and middle school about this stuff).
My sophomore year, with World History, we had a hippie teacher so we were VERY aware of what had gone on, and were frequently preached to about how great animist phiolosophy is :-P Again, I think it has to do with the teacher being knowledgeable and of conscience. I will admit that such events are often dumbed down in the textbooks. I think the issues are so popular now though that the textbook is not really an obstacle unless you are dealing with a truly mediocre teacher.
Anyway, I can tell you that I for sure as hell know about it in detail, being an inquisitive person and having both Indian blood and very close Indian kin. And I doubt you'd find ANY highschoolers that wouldn't be aware that "we screwed the indians bad", that stuff is just too much in the schools and popular media nowadays that they wouldn't pick it up and have it stick to some degree.
And finally to Hosokawa: I know this isn't relevant to what you were saying, but I will repeat the point that until the second Wounded Knee in the 70s it was still cowboys and injuns and no one really knew about the stuff or was sensitive to it. That's about an 80-year gap between the last prominent atrocities against Indians. So lets give the Japs a little more time, if we are going to hold them to OUR golden standard :-)
Matt
.
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